Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[CuteBucket]

This is a pretty technical explaination so please bear with me, I'll try to explain it as plainly as I can.

Thank you for this explanation, that does shed some light onto what is happening with the faces. The fact that they probably don't have a high poly mesh to make the new normal maps is...concerning, but also would explain a lot. Also wouldn't be surprised if they tried to cut even more corners with some BS "AI" upscaling that softens features and homogenizes everything, because that is what that kind of generative model program does by its nature.

[Len_]

Ah you guys really shouldn't harp on the "official statement" too much. As a software developer, a higher-up spouting some bs that sounds good while the people actually doing the work cringe and facepalm behind the scenes is the most natural thing in the world. It's just, given my knowledge of that, as a consumer, I would rather hear no news than some obvious smoke blown up my you know where. In this case it is even more cringey when the subject matter, 3D graphics, is something highly accessible that even hobbiests and amateurs with base knowledge are able to contradict. There is already a mod out that restores Thancred's face to what its supposed to look like. Is YoshiP aware of that? I'm guessing not.

[azaleai]

Thanks so much for the detailed and thorough breakdown, your posts are always wonderful and informative. I really appreciate you taking the time to do the write up. I think I understood most of it. I have noticed some of this stuff in other games before, like in KH, where the is a model with a ton of expression and detail for CS and others that have way less for outside of CS, but I imagine then they'd have an even more detailed model that the CS model was based one.

That's a very similar concept! Games that don't have customisable character models tend to use pre-rendered cutscenes, in which the studio will animate a scene and then record it on their end and just put the recorded snippets into the game files, rather than the models, animation data and camera data. It allows them to use much higher detail models (and more accurate animation) for cinematic cutscenes and can take up a bit less space for the files in the final product. But rendering with complex models takes a long time (we're talking days with multiple machines rendering a selection of frames each), so if the player has the ability to change anything about how their character looks (equipped weapons or clothes, any character creator data), they'll end up using real-time rendered cutscenes instead. Like how the trailer we're shown for expacs at fanfests is super detailed down to individual strands of hair, but the cutscene we get in the benchmarks, while the same cinematography, is much lower quality. Our PCs and consoles wouldn't be able to render that level of detail quick enough to be anything other than a slideshow, so we're given what we call "game ready" assets instead.

Thank you for this explanation, that does shed some light onto what is happening with the faces. The fact that they probably don't have a high poly mesh to make the new normal maps is...concerning, but also would explain a lot. Also wouldn't be surprised if they tried to cut even more corners with some BS "AI" upscaling that softens features and homogenizes everything, because that is what that kind of generative model program does by its nature.

I'm glad my explaination helped! I worried it might be a little too wordy and jargon filled, just because I work with this kind of stuff so most of it is second nature to me. Of course, I can't guarantee they don't have high poly models for these faces... my personal workflow was always to make the low-poly, duplicate, then up the detail on one of them to sculpt, so it's entirely possible they took the morphed faces and sculpted from there, but... I'm making a pretty educated guess looking at my face that they didn't bother, because there's no additional data on that normal map that couldn't have come from the original hyur face or special material textures (programs like Substance Painter can be used to apply normal map detail especially for surface textures like skin or woven fabrics without any sculpting).

AI is only as good as the data it is trained on; it reflects the bias of those who programmed it. If it is given only photoshopped perfect looking pretty models for the female faces and rough, rugged manly faces, that would explain why female faces are smooth and wax like, while the male faces are considerably more realistic in terms of wrinkles and pore texture.

Example from the Arcadion tier:

The cutscenes for Brute Bomber and Wiciked Thunder back to back are incredibly jarring. Brute Bomber's face is so wonderfully defined and then Wicked Thunder just looks... plastic by comparison.

It would make a lot of sense for the issues with my face too - Roegadyn brows aren't structured like human brows, so the AI that has only been trained on human faces would of course delete the parts it doesn't understand.

What worries me about the announcement me are statements like this:

"As noted previously, these issues are a result of the improvements made to graphical and computational accuracy, which have resulted in smoother visuals and a clearer representation of what was intended by the original data."

What especially bugs me is the: "[...] a clearer representation of what was intended by the original data."

What exactly is that supposed to imply?

This line really bothers me too... 'Original data' meaning the old models and textures? So, my face having defined creases for the furrowed brow previously was a mistake then, was it? This is the more accurate version? Sorry, I don't buy it. Just a load of PR hogwash to shift the blame to "'incorrect interpretations'" of the old faces so anything they fix now is out of the goodness of their hearts rather than them correcting their mistakes.

[Hatsuoki]

What worries me about the announcement me are statements like this:

"As noted previously, these issues are a result of the improvements made to graphical and computational accuracy, which have resulted in smoother visuals and a clearer representation of what was intended by the original data."

What especially bugs me is the: "[...] a clearer representation of what was intended by the original data."

What exactly is that supposed to imply?

Thank goodness this is being talked about. I keep being told that this is more accurate so the changes are just the consequences of having more polygons. It feels like gaslighting because that makes it sound like they designed all of their NPCs from ARR-EnW with the intention that they look like their "original data" and we're just seeing things clearer now. The veil has been lifted! It would make more sense that the characters we know, especially the later NPCs, were designed with the appearance that we were presented with and not something no one was able to see.

[CantDecide]

Regarding the philtrum for ♀ Midlander faces, I thought this JP user made an extremely good, extensive post about something I did not notice before:

While the lip shapes for these faces have always been somewhat similar, it appears that the philtrum and cupid's bow for Face 1 and Face 2 have been made identical in the update, when those parts of their lips were distinctly different from one another throughout 1.x-6.x. The entire curve of their bottom lip inexplicably changed for both of them, too, making them larger...

The bottom image of both sections comparing the different lip shapes from 7.x and 6.x accordingly also show how there is virtually no difference between the two lips now, when before they still had distinct outlines from one another. It's no wonder ♀ Midlander faces have felt suddenly difficult for me to tell apart. They absolutely should not be leaving things in this state, as, many users and myself have said before, the update has lessened our diversity of options.

The user was wondering if they started on Face 2, and just edited Face 1 from there and forgot to adjust the lips. From what I've noticed myself, ♀ Roegadyn have a similar issue going on, where it looks like the philtrum on all of their faces only line up for Face 4's mouth. Again, things like this don't make their newest statement feel honest.

Also, if quoting this user's post over here causes them any discomfort, or seems rude, I will delete this post. Still, for those affected by this issue, I'd recommend upvoting their post over there...

I'm really glad you and solbianca brought this up, because since switching to Face 2 I noticed this as well. It was disappointing to see I couldn't escape the pinched upper lip and wonky philtrum even with fantasia. I really hope if they restore Face 1's old lip shape, that they also restore the old semi-heart shape to Face 2's lips. They had a unique charm to them.

[lunartears]

I wonder if they will address the scales morphing with the face on Au Ra, I tried to report it as a bug with emotes but it was marked as insufficient. They even warp based on eyebrow choice (Face 4 - Eyebrows 2 and 3 in this gif):



Surely this isn't intentional, it wasn't like that before.

[Grimr]

To be quite honest, i don't really care about eye brows, mouths, etc of the graphical update. The way it was before was fine. For instance when i was playing xenoblade chronicles 3 i didn't care about how this character's mouth moved or what have you its nit picky. Square enix you could learn a lot from monolith soft if this expansion is any indication.

I have done crystal tower and the first two raids look godly with better lighting. Of course when i do the second one i always what to bust down the wall that leads to the twinnning. But other areas like ishgard areas look the same. The third raid the void looks the same too. Heavansword will be 10 in two years.

If your not going to update the areas that most need it why bother. Dev time spend on the graphic updates could have used to improve the storyline for dawntrial. And it really needs it. Pandemonium carried endwalker beautifully, but i don't see aracadian having the same effect.

Coming back from other games of course they are going to look better. FF14 started way back in 2014. Technology has only improved since then. The newer expansions will look better than the old ones. I only want quality expansions like that of heavansword and shadowbringers.

[Astronis]

Earlier, I saw a very egregious comparison of another F Au Ra Face 1 user (I don't want to post it without their permission, but this is the forum post) and my eyes were drawn to their character's philtrum. I know the lip shape is weird in general, but since seeing that photo it feels like something is going on with the philtrum on Face 1 and I can't figure out what it is. Is it more pronounced? Has it been moved downwards? I'm not entirely sure, but I'll attach a photo below.



(Sorry for the double post)

Instead of being flat across, there is a shadow cast into it that makes it look like it has some depth while having softer edges. It doesn't look to me like it has actually changed shape that much, as far as the actual model goes--it's no wider than it was nor does it look like it has moved down any. But the shadows giving it depth have changed how the shape is perceived. The dark shadows on the underside of the upper lip in the first picture make them look thinner than they are, though it looks to me like the curve has been actually straightened out. That's the biggest difference as far as the actual model changing there, the curve being straighter.

[Turnintino]

I wonder if they will address the scales morphing with the face on Au Ra, I tried to report it as a bug with emotes but it was marked as insufficient. They even warp based on eyebrow choice (Face 4 - Eyebrows 2 and 3 in this gif):



Surely this isn't intentional, it wasn't like that before.

To be fair, I think it makes some sense that the scales would behave like this, being intended to be part of their skin, not hovering above it (...despite the way they were placed on some faces might have us believe lol -- I hope that's finally addressed, with the way they cast shadows on the face).

[lunartears]

To be fair, I think it makes some sense that the scales would behave like this, being intended to be part of their skin, not hovering above it (...despite the way they were placed on some faces might have us believe lol -- I hope that's finally addressed, with the way they cast shadows on the face).

While I prefer them being separate parts of the face, I think I'd be more fine with it if they would sharpen the scales again. The way the textures look now make them look distorted.