Can we have some kind of feedback on positionals in game?

[jonimated]

for ninja it is 2.0 my friend.. and ninja has 0.5 sec on Ten Jin Chi which you didn't count

Yes I know, I mained Ninja from ARR to Shadowbringers.

Look I don't intend to derail the tread so this will be the last thing I say on APM in here. The reason I find it funny is because even the jobs with the fastest GCD in FFXIV is still slower than the slowest GCD for every single other popular MMO. WoW, SWTOR, ESO, GW2, all have faster GCDs. FFXIV Has the slowest GCD in the industry. Ninja has I believe 48 or 49 APM (I haven't checked since Endwalker but I doubt it's changed much). If we're talking simply about APM that's about on par (or worse) with the slowest classes for other MMOs, which all have a base GCD of 1.5s or less. For anyone who has only played FFXIV and finds the GCD fast in a vacuum that's fine. With nothing to compare it to they only have their own experience and ability as a point of comparison. As a larger discussion point though designing a game in a vacuum is what lead to FFXIV's original failure, and is partly responsible for it's current bland job design.

But on the topic at hand it would be nice to have positional feedback of some kind.

[BabyYoda]

Yes I know, I mained Ninja from ARR to Shadowbringers.

Look I don't intend to derail the tread so this will be the last thing I say on APM in here. The reason I find it funny is because even the jobs with the fastest GCD in FFXIV is still slower than the slowest GCD for every single other popular MMO. WoW, SWTOR, ESO, GW2, all have faster GCDs. FFXIV Has the slowest GCD in the industry. Ninja has I believe 48 or 49 APM (I haven't checked since Endwalker but I doubt it's changed much). If we're talking simply about APM that's about on par (or worse) with the slowest classes for other MMOs, which all have a base GCD of 1.5s or less. For anyone who has only played FFXIV and finds the GCD fast in a vacuum that's fine. With nothing to compare it to they only have their own experience and ability as a point of comparison. As a larger discussion point though designing a game in a vacuum is what lead to FFXIV's original failure, and is partly responsible for it's current bland job design.

But on the topic at hand it would be nice to have positional feedback of some kind.

Did you count the high delay and bad netcode structure too?
Or you just compare giga server structure of WoW to FFXIV servers?

[Claire_Pendragon]

GCD APM

you said u played it since ARR, but its APM have fluctuated quite a lot.
there are times when jobs in 14 had more APM than most WoW classes. (this hasnt been the case in the last 2 expansions at least, and i didnt look into it for ShB)

idc if it has little or a lot, because context will always matter. having a few buttons with extremely easy to do rotation on a low GCD isnt comparable to a slower GCD with a much more complex rotation with extra multitasking on top. (for the jobs/classes/expansions in question)
WoW and FF14 are pretty darn different, so I find it silly when ppl use the opposite to compare to eachother. WoW requires more reaction time, and less multitasking. They are both a different kind of challenge, and yes, some ppl will be better at one over the other. (In turn, that leads them to argue one is easier or harder) (One woman I know did raids in wow, and pvp, and was far better than myself. But she cant even play something as simple as RDM in EX/Savage. Shes better at reaction time, and not so much multitasking)

[Tunda]

you said u played it since ARR, but its APM have fluctuated quite a lot.
there are times when jobs in 14 had more APM than most WoW classes. (this hasnt been the case in the last 2 expansions at least, and i didnt look into it for ShB)

idc if it has little or a lot, because context will always matter. having a few buttons with extremely easy to do rotation on a low GCD isnt comparable to a slower GCD with a much more complex rotation with extra multitasking on top. (for the jobs/classes/expansions in question)
WoW and FF14 are pretty darn different, so I find it silly when ppl use the opposite to compare to eachother. WoW requires more reaction time, and less multitasking. They are both a different kind of challenge, and yes, some ppl will be better at one over the other. (In turn, that leads them to argue one is easier or harder) (One woman I know did raids in wow, and pvp, and was far better than myself. But she cant even play something as simple as RDM in EX/Savage. Shes better at reaction time, and not so much multitasking)

there is a reason why we have 2.5s GCD.. it is how they structure the game servers.. I mean Yoshi love action games look at FF16 a full action FF game.

Personally I don't mind slow play 2.5 s and give more room for planning, preparing and more untraditional job designs that I would love to see in the future

[Claire_Pendragon]

Personally I don't mind slow play 2.5 s and give more room for planning, preparing and more untraditional job designs that I would love to see in the future

I agree as well, due to tendonitis, i swapped to 14 over wow. im actually worse with multitasking, but it wont hurt my hands as badly lol.

[Valence]

Yes I know, I mained Ninja from ARR to Shadowbringers.

Look I don't intend to derail the tread so this will be the last thing I say on APM in here. The reason I find it funny is because even the jobs with the fastest GCD in FFXIV is still slower than the slowest GCD for every single other popular MMO. WoW, SWTOR, ESO, GW2, all have faster GCDs. FFXIV Has the slowest GCD in the industry. Ninja has I believe 48 or 49 APM (I haven't checked since Endwalker but I doubt it's changed much). If we're talking simply about APM that's about on par (or worse) with the slowest classes for other MMOs, which all have a base GCD of 1.5s or less. For anyone who has only played FFXIV and finds the GCD fast in a vacuum that's fine. With nothing to compare it to they only have their own experience and ability as a point of comparison. As a larger discussion point though designing a game in a vacuum is what lead to FFXIV's original failure, and is partly responsible for it's current bland job design.

But on the topic at hand it would be nice to have positional feedback of some kind.

How complex are classes in those other MMOs you're quoting out of curiosity? I'm not making any judgement here, it just made me curious.

[Shurrikhan]

How complex are classes in those other MMOs you're quoting out of curiosity? I'm not making any judgement here, it just made me curious.

Depends on how you look at them. Are you following an oversimplified APL, or actually trying to min-max -- including via RNG mitigation / appropriate gambles for variable windows of opportunity? If the prior, many will appear simpler. If the latter, very few.

WoW requires more reaction time, and less multitasking. They are both a different kind of challenge, and yes, some ppl will be better at one over the other. (In turn, that leads them to argue one is easier or harder) (One woman I know did raids in wow, and pvp, and was far better than myself. But she cant even play something as simple as RDM in EX/Savage. Shes better at reaction time, and not so much multitasking)

'More' reaction time would be 'slower' reaction speeds, no? Whatever the intent, you generally need to react far more quickly there, and the decisions often have a higher ceiling of nuance for min-maxing, since rotations there are not rigid and windows of opportunity are both more stark and more varied, so it's not as if that comes at cost to thoughtfulness (only to some player's likelihood of hitting a point of diminished returns on that thought spent).

[Claire_Pendragon]

'More' reaction time would be 'slower' reaction speeds, no?

sorry, to clarify why i said "more" rather than "less", I meant in terms of mechanics. "More mechanics based on reaction time." would be more accurate to what I was trying to say, but how you corrected it would still be pretty much just as accurate.

[Valence]

Depends on how you look at them. Are you following an oversimplified APL, or actually trying to min-max -- including via RNG mitigation / appropriate gambles for variable windows of opportunity? If the prior, many will appear simpler. If the latter, very few.


'More' reaction time would be 'slower' reaction speeds, no? Whatever the intent, you generally need to react far more quickly there, and the decisions often have a higher ceiling of nuance for min-maxing, since rotations there are not rigid and windows of opportunity are both more stark and more varied, so it's not as if that comes at cost to thoughtfulness (only to some player's likelihood of hitting a point of diminished returns on that thought spent).

Besides the carpal tunnel APM, that kind of battle design looks so much more interesting at a glance to me now. Not gonna lie, I kinda want to react and think more, and memorize fight specific excel spreadsheets less..

[Carighan]

Besides the carpal tunnel APM, that kind of battle design looks so much more interesting at a glance to me now. Not gonna lie, I kinda want to react and think more, and memorize fight specific excel spreadsheets less..

Yeah it's really weird that SQEX only uses two types of combat gameplay for all jobs, and frankly only one (because Dancer is the only one with the other one). We got 1 job with semi-random and semi-proc-based gameplay, and all other ones use rigid pre-determined rotations. You would at least assume 1 job in each role is based on procs, and then probably also those based on a priority list (which isn't the same as a fixed rotation even if both can usually be written down in either way), on resource starvation, on fully random chance, on weaving and on alignment.

There's so many options for setting up the underlying concept of a class, and yet they only use a single one (plus the one exception). It's so weird. And it's not like they couldn't trivially transplant all the other setups whole from other MMORPGs that readily show them how to do them!