A note on balance

[Enfarious]

I couldn't help but stop after reading/posting over and over about the imbalanced nature of things, and even now knowing that a patch is right around the corner I have to just mention rq.

if job_a has:
weapon basedmg > all
hp > all
def = tank
str = DD
vit > all (encouraged by it being a dmg modifier)
abils that out dmg DDs and generate enmity in amounts > standard tank abilities
self heals and dmg reduction on par w/ all melees

isn't that unbalanced?
Does no one at all see that?
Should that playing field not be leveled?

Point out one job that can boast all those things ... THEN ... point to another that can match the first.
If/When you can't simple logic says there's a lack of balance.
If I throw a dart at a wall that has all jobs listed randomly, then throw another those 2 jobs, regardless of what they are should have pluses and minuses that make them level/equal. That's not to say all jobs should be able to spit out the exact same dmg, or have the same HP, but rather to say that,

job_a has dmg+++ hp+++ def+++ enmity+++
is not balanced where

job_b has dmg+++ hp-- def--- enmity++
job_c has dmg--- hp++ def+++ enmity +
are balancedish.

To make all jobs balanced by bringing everything up to the level of the OP job would just mean everything is +++ on every job. That'd be f'in stupid.

Yes my example is super crude, but it does illustrate the point, and if the only argument to my logic is that there's more than 4 stats to consider please don't bother.

[ChiefCurrahee]

job_b has dmg+++ hp-- def--- enmity++
job_c has dmg--- hp++ def+++ enmity +
are balancedish.

To make all jobs balanced by bringing everything up to the level of the OP job would just mean everything is +++ on every job. That'd be f'in stupid.

Yes my example is super crude, but it does illustrate the point, and if the only argument to my logic is that there's more than 4 stats to consider please don't bother.

I'm gonna say that War is job B and Pld is job C.

The way enmity works is like this:
1) Direct skills (provoke,flash,wardrum,rampart)
2) Damage dealt modified by enmity+ enahncements (WS modifier, sentinel, antagonize ect ect)
3) Cures are calculated as a standard % of HP restored i think it's 50% (heal for 500, receive 250 enmity)

Now Enmity IS NOT LOST when taking damage. So A warrior that has higher damage output, and access to more enmity enhancing skills will generally hold hate more effectively than a Pld.

So if a War i getting hit for 750 a pop and a Pld is getting hit for 600 a pop you might say the balance is in the defense. Less damage taken by the Pld leads to less cures. But the Hate will quickly switch to who ever out damages the PLD very quickly despite direct enmity skills rotations like flash and provoke, wardrum ect ect. Those skills do not generate enough hate over extended battles to offset the way enmity is calculated from damage.

I hope there will be some calculation and algorithm changes to damage/enmity gain and skill/enmity gains.

But to balance War and Pld to eachother.

1) Pld needs to either have enough HP to stand toe to toe with strong mobs and have their direct enmity calculations enhanced for PLD only, like through reworked traits.

or

2) Pld needs to have HP increased and damage output increased to stand a chance vs other high dmg output jobs.

[Enfarious]

Agree to the abolish PL add level sync too ^^

The def/dmg reduction on pld atm isn't enough to count as balancing, but it should be, and hopefully with that and some tweaks to HP a pld's self heals and direct enmity skills will be enough to make it viable again.

I wasn't actually aiming so much to hit on any jobs in particular though. I was making the super crude example because there's many unbalanced aspects to the game. If balance were done as an equation of +s and -s everything should in theory 0 out but any way we pose the equation they don't.

WHM being able to heal itself fast enough/potently enough to tank a primal.
BLM pushing such high dmg that most mobs don't get to hit it so it's lack of def don't matter lvl 40 blm killing lvl 52 mobs in leves solo w/o issue for instance.
WAR we all know where that's headed too potent tank for the dmg output it can muster and the hp pool and w/e else.
PLD so weak it can't solo effectively from a dmg aspect when any other job can.
DRG and MNK aren't bad for the roles they're intended to play.
BRD this is another I haven't noticed any real issue with.

My thinking after that is that: If DRG == MNK == BRD, probably the problems lie in the other jobs not being balanced.

[kazaran]

Increase enimity generation but not damage on jobs that have high defense, it shoudl be lowered, war is unbalanced, but that is beign adjusted. SO expect a decrease in damage.

TM and BLm needs a slight increase in damage and should remain the top of the list for DD, and be a true blm not a mixed half bagged version. More Damage over time spells included. If a war can equal damage of a THM or BLM, it's not balanced, otherwise we all might as well be wars and forget about other classes. War and WHM, all that would be needed. PLD needs more Enimity generating abilities, higher defense. War needs to be what it is, a blend. Generating less Enimity then the PLD, and havign slightly less defense, and a mix moderation of damage requiring cool downs timed for max output.

Need more support jobs with better supporting abilities..

[Enfarious]

Enmity generation is a far smaller problem, not saying it isn't one, than say BLM deals by far and away the most dmg so puts mnk and drk out of work, WAR mostly due to poor def/vit/mnd/-pdt/-mdt calculations/traits on PLD puts PLD out of work.

Solutions:
BLM isn't having any real trouble staying on top of the dmg ttls for any fight so let's leave that alone. They'll be beast so long as they can stay at a distance and don't draw hate. More dmg = more hate so again let's leave it.

PLD needs 2 things, dmg mitigation that's worth something, and the enmity decay mechanics reworked to include dmg take reduces enmity, not on a 1 : 1 but to some degree so that the mitigation means something.

WAR with the above fix is fine, his increased HP and higher dmg output will keep him in the tanking roles, it'll just take a little more effort to keep hate and since atm it's a joke to keep hate on WAR would that be so bad.

MNK and DRG alike need something else to bring to the party, if they aren't going to have dmg output equal to a BLM, and they can't tank, and they're gonna take all that AoE spam, I don't care how "good" you are noone "never" gets hit. That's all drawbacks with ... no pluses in the majority of content. Give them some unique AND useful AoE melee buffs and useful enfeebles, ones that never stick on a boss aren't going to get it, as it is there's no good reason to bring 3/7 jobs because they can be outdone by others that also bring something else useful.

PLD is headed toward WHM w/ def. land ...

[Duelle]

Increase enimity generation but not damage on jobs that have high defense, it shoudl be lowered, war is unbalanced, but that is beign adjusted. SO expect a decrease in damage.

Considering DPS is also part of how tanks generate enmity, a DPS boost for PLD would not hurt. It would also make soloing less of a pain on GLD/PLD.

THM and BLM needs a slight increase in damage and should remain the top of the list for DD, and be a true blm not a mixed half bagged version.

No. All that does is encourage people even more to stack BLM for hard content, and force the devs to balance content with the possibility of people stacking BLMs. Bring MNK and DRG and any future damage dealer to BLM's level? Sure. Make BLM the king of all DPS? No.

Need more support jobs with better supporting abilities.

Support is a word that is tossed around here too much. DPS with a buff/debuff or two built in is not impossible. It might even help with the party diversity issues we're currently having. Not to mention the majority of the Final Fantasy jobs are damage jobs. I wouldn't aim to reduce them to "support"; it never leads to anything other than a bunch of disgruntled players.

@ChiefCurrahee: I favor option 2. Though if enmity doesn't decay when taking damage, then that's part of the problem as well. Higher damage taken equalling higher enmity lost may balance out WAR's enmity gain. At the same time, PLD is still lacking in certain aspects. The fact it has no AoE sword skill being one (I felt this recently when we were levelling on mobs that came in groups and I had a real hard time holding them on me because outside of Rampart I had nothing to hold hate with outside of target swapping and praying the party was focusing on the right mob); even moreso when GLA used to have Circle Blade.

The job also needs enmity modifiers to its actions, or as you suggested, traits that increase enmity gain. The devs may love stuff like +Enmity on gear, but that part of the item budget could be better-spent on ACC, not to mention STR (which is supposed to be one of PLD's main stats). It's taking up space for more valuable stats, which I feel does little to help in the end.