Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[Doopliss]

I checked back on a photo I made comparing both benchmarks to 6.5 and I noticed that in the April Benchmark that Eye Shape 3 - Female Au Ra Face 1 was much closer to the original with the sharper appearance and longer eyelashes. Oddly, the enlarged pupil size and everything else is the same in both benchmarks, they only modified the eye shape. I'm even more confused now as to why it was suddenly changed last second if it more closely resembled the original appearance in April's. It did look off, but I wish they kept it closer to the April eye shape.

My theory with this issue is that, after a bunch of people (rightfully, IMO) complained about eye makeup and mascara becoming way too heavy on some face options in the first benchmark, they decided to lessen eyelash length on every face as a part of a rushed fix, instead of checking each face individually for said issues.

*This image was made during the first benchmark release.

My Face 2 ♀ Viera was a victim of this in the initial benchmark (that's when the above image comparison was made) and thankfully got corrected for the second benchmark and official release. But I don't think they should have done a sweeping nerf on all eyelashes to achieve that correction, so I hope they go back and fix them...

[Iscah]

I just want to revoke my earlier comment that I was having trouble seeing what was going on with my face #4 male Miqo'te eye shape. The eyes have definitely gotten smaller around the edges and the eyelashes don't extend out as far. Will aim to do comparison pictures tomorrow.

[EchoingPulse]

I think we can all agree is that Square shouldn't have touched the character models AT ALL. Whatever the old settings they had for years clearly were working.

[Louhikko]

I think we can all agree is that Square shouldn't have touched the character models AT ALL. Whatever the old settings they had for years clearly were working.

Not sure I agree with this. I think it's important to remember that a lot of the issues also stem from the new lighting that highlights different areas than before which is what makes some areas of the models look weird. Take hyurs puffy eyelids for example, they obviously don't look good but the old models also had them and the new lighting just makes them more obvious where previously they were not that noticeable. The best solution would have to actually edit the model itself and reduce the puffiness of the eyelids to account for the new lighting but in attempt to keep the models as close to original as possible, they opted not to change that area creating an even bigger disillusion.

Sure, some areas have been changed too much but and this thread is proof of that, however to think that everyone would be happy if the models were not changed at all and only textures and lighting were updated shows imo a lack of understanding on how delicate of a process it is to actually upscale models and the environment while retaining the original look.

[poooman]

i do also agree with the lighting causing a ton of issues. temporarily setting aside genuine shape changes for things like eyes, noses or lips for some, the fact older areas and (seemingly) portraits do Not have the updated lighting just creates a ton of unflattering lighting like we saw in the first benchmark. that 'triangle' highlight on the face causing the cheeks to look horribly sunk in is the greatest offender alongside the oddly prominent highlighting of the under-eye.

as i've said in previous posts i just think going for a more 'realistic' inspired shader on a more stylized game will create issues like this. real life shadows are not always flattering on real people, but i think when people play a game they usually want the characters to be lit in a way closer to a movie. while the nature of real-time calculated shadows is that you cannot and will not be able to account for every single lighting scenario, it just feels like there wasn't even an effort to do so? i don't care about the technical side of how hard my computer has to work to show me it, just put some thought into how it looks. insert pretentious comment about my personal preference being games that are technically 'worse' but heavily stylized to 'make up' for it

i have got to stop rambleposting but that's my onion

[Khryseis_Astra]

Not sure I agree with this. I think it's important to remember that a lot of the issues also stem from the new lighting that highlights different areas than before which is what makes some areas of the models look weird. Take hyurs puffy eyelids for example, they obviously don't look good but the old models also had them and the new lighting just makes them more obvious where previously they were not that noticeable. The best solution would have to actually edit the model itself and reduce the puffiness of the eyelids to account for the new lighting but in attempt to keep the models as close to original as possible, they opted not to change that area creating an even bigger disillusion.

Sure, some areas have been changed too much but and this thread is proof of that, however to think that everyone would be happy if the models were not changed at all and only textures and lighting were updated shows imo a lack of understanding on how delicate of a process it is to actually upscale models and the environment while retaining the original look.

Agreed… while I personally didn’t think the original graphics were bad at all, especially for the age of the game, I get that they’re trying to compete with newer games, as well as give their artists better tools to work with.

But like you said, they should’ve taken the time and care to realize just what the new lighting, textures, etc. were going to do to the faces and correct for that. The under-eye puffy bags are one example of that, as is the heavily emphasized philtrum on many faces. Although I suspect there are other issues at play, with regard to how the eyes and mouths function with emotes now, but I don’t have the technical knowledge to speculate on that, so I leave it to those that do.

In the end, all we really want is their initial goal: updated graphics without changing the overall look and feel of our characters. One of the selling points of this game is the ability to create your own character as the main character. So naturally people are very attached to their character(s). Just hoping we get some good news soon!

[Astronis]

I think we can all agree is that Square shouldn't have touched the character models AT ALL. Whatever the old settings they had for years clearly were working.

No, I think we cannot all agree on that. The 2.0 character models had issues that have been visible for years. In addition, they added a lot more bones to the models so they can animate better in the future. I also suspect they remade the models the way they did so future cross-race items will be easier to make for them, but that's just a guess.

[noumen0nn]

The best solution would have to actually edit the model itself and reduce the puffiness of the eyelids to account for the new lighting but in attempt to keep the models as close to original as possible, they opted not to change that area creating an even bigger disillusion.

I see your overall point, but I wanted to point out that this specific instance actually isn't an issue with the new lighting interacting with the model itself. Rather, the eyebag shadows are "drawn" onto the normal map of the face. If you remove the eyebag lines from the normal map, that region of the face would go back to looking smooth without needing to alter the geometry.

[Cyrtip]

No, I think we cannot all agree on that. The 2.0 character models had issues that have been visible for years. In addition, they added a lot more bones to the models so they can animate better in the future. I also suspect they remade the models the way they did so future cross-race items will be easier to make for them, but that's just a guess.

Could just be the particular face I use and scrutinized the most had no lingering problems pre 7.0, what with it being a 3.0 addition race and not a 2.0 race, but I had no problems with the old face models.
As an end user, facial animations looked so much better with the fewer bones the devs had to work with pre 7.0. Sure, 7.0 models might be a technical upgrade and better to animate in future because of additional bones, but the animations we have right here in the now are definitely worse than what we had in the past. I don't want to have to look forwards to a fix, for something that worked just fine three months ago. We've updated but backwards haha...
I've heard about the cross race gear explanation too, I think in LA Fan Fest they talked about auto-adapting headgear to fit different races. If its true that the face models were remade to cut development costs, quality be damned, then that's just saddening to hear.

[Astronis]

Could just be the particular face I use and scrutinized the most had no lingering problems pre 7.0, what with it being a 3.0 addition race and not a 2.0 race, but I had no problems with the old face models.
As an end user, facial animations looked so much better with the fewer bones the devs had to work with pre 7.0. Sure, 7.0 models might be a technical upgrade and better to animate in future because of additional bones, but the animations we have right here in the now are definitely worse than what we had in the past. I don't want to have to look forwards to a fix, for something that worked just fine three months ago. We've updated but backwards haha...
I've heard about the cross race gear explanation too, I think in LA Fan Fest they talked about auto-adapting headgear to fit different races. If its true that the face models were remade to cut development costs, quality be damned, then that's just saddening to hear.

I know that in one of the Fanfests, Yoshi-P took great pains to point out some of the issues lalafell had that they were correcting, and I know, playing a Highlander, there were issues there also, issues I've been very pleased to be rid of now. I can just imagine that he was playing his main and just being irked at the things he saw that couldn't be fixed...until now. Faces added after 2.0 probably didn't have those same issues. At least, I never saw the same kind of problems on my au ra alt that has the same face as yours judging by the horns.

And yea I can see people being unhappy with the current animations. Some of them need correcting as they didn't quite translate (I know some expressions cause a weird twitching on the eyebrows that absolutely should not be there).

I really, seriously disagree that it was "quality be damned", as I can see a great deal of care has gone into making the faces as close as possible while still maintaining the same feel. I know quite a lot of people disagree with that, but the faces do, in my eyes, still have the same aesthetics while being an upgrade. Faces either designed by or inspired by Tetsuya Nomura's work still look unmistakably like Tetsuya Nomura's work. I do think there's some work left yet--some faces have some crazy tall foreheads and there's some weirdness here and there, but no, the quality was not to be damned. If it was quality be damned, they wouldn't have gone through the effort correcting things from the first benchmark (and maybe second, though at least on my Highlander's face, if there was such a pass it was so minor as to be unnoticeable).