Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Not true.

Normally when people die in the FFXIV universe, they go to the Lifestream where their memory aether is washed off their soul before their soul is reused and born again. They're not watching anything and certainly not interacting with anyone.

You really can't compare the normal process to what happens with Emet-Selch, who spent 12,000 years as a ghost and before that was an Ancient tasked with overseeing the Underworld (Lifestream) itself. After the events of EW MSQ are dealt with, he finally allows his spirit to go back to the Lifestream to go through the normal process. That's not something most people can do and I have no idea where you got the idea that it was possible for more mundane people.

We walked down there. We fought old foes. We interacted with Minfilia, Papalymo, Hauchefant, Yasale. They were more faded than the people with more unresolved issues like Asahi, but they were very much down there chillaxing and able to view the living world because Emet-Selch narrates EW and Asahi was big mad about Amon parading around in his body and betraying Zenos. So while yes, they break down in the aetherial sea, they do so slowly. Slowly enough to reconnect with their loved ones before fading away. Or at least it very much seems so from what I've seen. It looks like the souls in the aetherial sea are still self-aware and active. Active enough to both fight us and protect us.

[Arzalis]

You can't compare civilizations of living, breathing people with a collection of simulacra made from dead peoples' memories. And besides, multiple Endless are OK with their passing, one actively pursues it, another doesn't care either way, and another expresses disgust at the idea of continuing at the cost of living people.

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

We talked to a total of three or four people out of what the game tells us is at least thousands. I'm sure the Ascians could've found a couple sundered who would be cool with the rejoining too.

There were just so many better ways to handle the last zone, even if you came to the same ultimate conclusion, and the writer opted to take none of them. They tried to force feed us an answer (which is an issue most of DT has tbh) instead of actually exploring the question.

[Alchemii]

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

We talked to a total of three or four people out of what the game tells us is at least thousands. I'm sure the Ascians could've found a couple sundered who would be cool with the rejoining too.

There were just so many better ways to handle the last zone, even if you came to the same ultimate conclusion, and the writer opted to take none of them. They tried to force feed us an answer (which is an issue most of DT has tbh) instead of actually exploring the question.

I question if these writers even bothered playing the MSQ at this point. It feels like they were just given cliff notes of what makes a "FFXIV MSQ per Expansion" and just followed those, but you know in a way that could only be done by somebody incompetent.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

We talked to a total of three or four people out of what the game tells us is at least thousands. I'm sure the Ascians could've found a couple sundered who would be cool with the rejoining too.

There were just so many better ways to handle the last zone, even if you came to the same ultimate conclusion, and the writer opted to take none of them. They tried to force feed us an answer (which is an issue most of DT has tbh) instead of actually exploring the question.

All the Convocation members besides the Unsundered would be Sundered working towards the rejoining. So, got 10 there and there are also lower tier Ascians working towards the rejoining, like the lady in the Shadowbringers bar and even Warriors of Light on the First who flip sides. So yeah, there are tons of Sundered working towards a rejoining. Heck, even Varis was working towards a full rejoining just to spite his grandfather. And while I'm still not sure how doing the thing the person wants you to do is an act of rebellion, he was still actively attempting to cause calamities. Good thing we didn't do a survey. 10/10 Ascians we spoke with are in full support of a rejoining.

[Jamini]

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

Honestly, it feels like a lot of people didn't bother reading the story/lore of the Last Dregs. At all. Basically nothing created within Ultima Thule has a soul by definition, yet they are treated by that writer as full creatures with thoughts and worthy of dignity and respect by the writers of those quests.

The Endless...didn't get that. While they are an AI replica of a once-living creature that very clearly do not have a soul, they very much do experience new (if curated) experiences and develop new ideas and connections. Most if not all of them likely would have passed a Turing Test with flying colors. If the MSQ didn't go well out of its way to repeatedly reassure us that destroying them was kosher I suspect more people would be upset.

Part of it is also likely tied to real-life beliefs. I personally do not believe souls exist. For me, destruction of someone's memory that has been preserved would be the equivalent of murder...worse than murder in a civilization where memory transference would be a thing. (Eclipse Phase, Altered Carbon). For someone that follows a classic abrahamic religion the creation of a soulless memory would be borderline sacrilegious (A mockery of life, man attempting to play God) and the destruction of a soulless automaton would be perfectly acceptable.

I'm going to continue personally stating that I see the Endless akin to the Sundered, as the Sundered are akin to the Ancients. We destroyed them so that we may live, and this is acceptable. That we did not mourn or protest the situation further (or at least get more than a single option to do so) is what angers me, and makes us not much better than Emet was.

[AnotherPerson]

Not true.

Normally when people die in the FFXIV universe, they go to the Lifestream where their memory aether is washed off their soul before their soul is reused and born again. They're not watching anything and certainly not interacting with anyone.

You really can't compare the normal process to what happens with Emet-Selch, who spent 12,000 years as a ghost and before that was an Ancient tasked with overseeing the Underworld (Lifestream) itself. After the events of EW MSQ are dealt with, he finally allows his spirit to go back to the Lifestream to go through the normal process. That's not something most people can do and I have no idea where you got the idea that it was possible for more mundane people.

Asahi literally mentions watching Amon puppeteer his body against Zenos and getting mad. Asahi dies in Stormblood. It is later revealed it is Fandaniel who taken over his body.

The only way Asahi knows it is Amon is puppeteering his body and not Fandaniel is if he was able to watch the events unfolding from Shadowbringers to Endwalker the entire time. Same person, but the person who pops up in the Aetherial Sea is Amon. Asahi should not be aware of any of this if he wasn't able to see the events unfolding.

[MikkoAkure]

The only way Asahi knows it is Amon is puppeteering his body and not Fandaniel is if he was able to watch the events unfolding from Shadowbringers to Endwalker the entire time.

Can’t believe I have to explain myself, but if you’re dead and you’re able to watch events play out or even interact with things, you’re a ghost. You’re not in the Lifestream. There’s plenty of examples in the game already.

If you’re in the Lifestream, your soul is in the process of being washed away but it’s explained there that those with strong wills can maintain their sense of self for a time. But considering the whole point is to wash the soul for reuse, I highly doubt there’s an “afterlife tv” where they can watch things and there’s no concrete evidence of such.

Considering Asahi is extremely intact unlike his Garlean compatriots we encounter who EE3 describes as soul fragments, Asahi probably was haunting Fandaniel the whole time and chased him into the Lifestream and that’s how I understood it at the time as well. Emet-Selch himself only actually went to the Lifestream to take a soul cleanse at the very end of EW and we know he’s been hovering around.

[AnotherPerson]

Can’t believe I have to explain myself, but if you’re dead and you’re able to watch events play out or even interact with things, you’re a ghost. You’re not in the Lifestream. There’s plenty of examples in the game already.

If you’re in the Lifestream, your soul is in the process of being washed away but it’s explained there that those with strong wills can maintain their sense of self for a time. But considering the whole point is to wash the soul for reuse, I highly doubt there’s an “afterlife tv” where they can watch things and there’s no concrete evidence of such.

Considering Asahi is extremely intact unlike his Garlean compatriots we encounter who EE3 describes as soul fragments, Asahi probably was haunting Fandaniel the whole time and chased him into the Lifestream and that’s how I understood it at the time as well. Emet-Selch himself only actually went to the Lifestream to take a soul cleanse at the very end of EW and we know he’s been hovering around.

... That's not how souls work.

You do realize the "ghosts" you are referring to are wraiths - effectively souls that can manipulate the surrounding aether to generate a body for themselves. Those who neither have the Echo or have a technique/art applied on them will have their souls directly sent to the Aetherial Sea. Souls don't randomly hang out in the living world. There has to be specific conditions for them to stay in the living world - all of which Asahi does not fulfill. Ascians are beings who have the Echo - and thus can manifest themselves even just as a soul in the living world. Asahi is not an Ascian. He does not have the ability to remain conscious as a soul in the living world.

[4clubbedace]

gasp, head Character ai think lesser character AIs are real out of grief.

Theyre chat gpt chatbots, dont feel bad

[MikkoAkure]

... That's not how souls work.

You do realize the "ghosts" you are referring to are wraiths - effectively souls that can manipulate the surrounding aether to generate a body for themselves. Those who neither have the Echo or have a technique/art applied on them will have their souls directly sent to the Aetherial Sea. Souls don't randomly hang out in the living world. There has to be specific conditions for them to stay in the living world - all of which Asahi does not fulfill. Ascians are beings who have the Echo - and thus can manifest themselves even just as a soul in the living world. Asahi is not an Ascian. He does not have the ability to remain conscious as a soul in the living world.

If Asahi was in the Lifestream the whole time, where is he watching everything from? We were there. It’s just thick aether. Are you saying he can magically part clouds and watch from above like a cartoon?

The only thing that makes sense is that he was there as a spirit, which means he wasn’t in the Lifestream. The encyclopedia says this can happen, as does the presence of ghost enemies in-game. The souls of the dead indeed are generally called to the Lifestream, but it doesn’t always happen.

Some cultures believe that when the dead are not provided proper burials, their souls remain trapped in the corporeal realm.

Sometimes, people are unaware when the end knocks, and their souls miss the opportunity to journey back into the Lifestream.

Scholars theorize that [Dalvag’s] mortal remains are animated by a thirst for vengeance alone.

Albin was but one of many slain in the abortive conquest, yet his mortal coil still roams the land in search of vengeance.