WXHB long-term carpal tunnel

[AvoSturmfaust]

I see a lot of people providing alternatives, but not taking into consideration OP's original idea. Why do we even need to to double tap an input when there are other buttons available on the controller that can handle it in a single press? Currently, the shoulder buttons are used for hotbar switching (an outdated thing you shouldn't be using in combat), autorun, and for tab targeting in conjunction with the triggers. I would personally be fine all of those inputs were instead moved to double presses as they are either not necessary or don't come up as often. I feel like the game should at least allow for more customization for changing controller layouts. It just seems like they want to simplify anything related to consoles as much as possible to the player's detriment, even if playing on PC.

As for my personal recommendations to deal with hand fatigue. I think the Dualsense is a really uncomfortable controller (for my hand size at least). I would consider switching to another controller, maybe smaller and lighter. Third party controllers often have back buttons that may be useful as replacements for shoulder buttons. I also mostly stick to the single hotbar and expanded hotbar, leaving double inputs for more niche actions.

Sorry to tell you but i use the Buttons to switch Sets all the time, so i rather keep them thank you.

[Claire_Pendragon]

You are, at best, losing 0.5s on every single GCD you use with a macro for this purpose. \

its roughly 0.1s for every line in the macro.
so if the 1st line is macro error off, then the 2nd line would be 0.2s delay
now because of human error, there will also be additional delay by the time u press it after the GCD is up, which can be roughly a 0.3 - 0.6 second delay (averaged out to roughly 0.5s delay)

[LilimoLimomo]

A really big problem with using macros like this is that you can't "queue" a macro like you can just a straight action

As I've already mentioned in this thread, macros can queue, but you need to explicitly write them to do so. All of the macros I've listed here can be written to queue.

[LilimoLimomo]

Also, please never, ever use macros for combo chains. You are, at best, losing 0.5s on every single GCD you use with a macro for this purpose. That adds up a LOT over the course of the fight.

Yeah, broadly speaking I recommend against writing macros that chain GCD skills with /wait commands, as it's nearly inevitable that such a macro will meaningfully clip the GCD (or simply not function). That said, I've met some people who are sufficiently disabled, and for them such macros can make such a huge difference; because of that I don't like to say "never" use these, and instead prefer to generally advise against it while noting the reasons why. That way every individual can weigh the pros and cons in accordance with their own situation and needs.

[LilimoLimomo]

its roughly 0.1s for every line in the macro.
so if the 1st line is macro error off, then the 2nd line would be 0.2s delay

You and Bibine_Bine are talking about different aspects of macros. They're talking about the /wait command, while you're talking about how long each line of the macro takes to run.

Folks have actually done tests on this, and it turns out that macros run at 1 line per frame. This means that macros run at different speeds depending on your personal frame-rate, which is part of why it's important to tailor macros to your individual system. So for a macro to run 1 line every 0.1 seconds, you'd have to be running the game at 10 frames-per-second. And if that's your system, then yeah, you'd have to take that into consideration when you were writing your macros.

For me, I'm on PS5 which gives me 60 fps, so it would take a full 120+ "wasted" lines of macros just to lose 2 seconds — roughly a single GCD for an accelerated class like Ninja. But with a well-written macro, I'm generally not wasting many lines; most macros will have 0 waste, while a handful will have 1 or 2 lines of waste. The amount of time that you'd need to be perfectly chaining every GCD together — without the boss becoming invulnerable, leaving range, human error, etc — to lose a single full turn of the GCD would be somewhere around 5 minutes. So in a 20-minute fight the world's most perfect player might lose a whopping 4 actions. It's unlikely to occur, and the cost when it does occur is minimal.

Which is to say, not using macros because you're concerned about losing casts is like not using cars because you're worried about car crashes. If you drive safely (this is a metaphor), then you're very unlikely to run into any trouble with macros.

there will also be additional delay by the time u press it after the GCD is up

With a well-written and well-utilized macro, this actually won't be an issue because you don't press the macro after the GCD is up, you press it before the GCD is up so that it queues, similar to how you would for a normal action. You just have to write your macro so that it has queuing behavior, which most players don't know you can do.

[Claire_Pendragon]

you'd have to be running the game at 10 frames-per-second.

maybe it depends on whats written on that line.
im on PS4, and when i was told this, i tested it out in summer famrs dummy with no one around, so i know my FPS wasnt 10.
its been a long time, but i believe the macro was;
/ac "WS1" <wait.2>
/echo 1
/echo 2
/echo 3
/echo 4
/echo 5
/ac "WS2

and it did the 2 hit combo just fine. and what appeared to be nearly perfectly aligned to the GCD (obviously SkS effected the GCD a tad)
but my memory isnt perfect, so it might not have been echo that was used to test.

EDIT: I should also mention ive seen examples where im wrong, but couldnt figure out what was the issue. the biggest being a macro for ground targeting, that targets <t> 14 times, and then ends on <me> for the final step, and no matter what, i can spam click the macro, it will ALWAYS land on me, and never the target. so in this example, its going at a much faster rate than 0.1 like you said

EDIT#2: I should also add that this same macro worked just fine in HW 90% of the time, and only in Shadowbringers when I decided to reuse it, did I notice issues.

EDIT#3: And my current issue im seeing, that i hadnt seen until now in DT, is the same macro is now choosing to never trigger at all roughly 50% of the time. (Salted Earth on DRK, trying to weave it inbetween my GCD) As soon as I hit a GCD, i spam the button... and i do mean spam it. and my GCD will end, and i just go hit a new GCD, and it hadnt gone off. (I obviously cant double weave with it, but im trying to just single weave) If I use it when the GCD is over, then it will always trigger. but even if the GCD is 90% over, it only triggers 50%~ of the time.

[LilimoLimomo]

maybe it depends on whats written on that line.
im on PS4, and when i was told this, i tested it out in summer famrs dummy with no one around, so i know my FPS wasnt 10.
its been a long time, but i believe the macro was;
/ac "WS1" <wait.2>
/echo 1
/echo 2
/echo 3
/echo 4
/echo 5
/ac "WS2

and it did the 2 hit combo just fine. and what appeared to be nearly perfectly aligned to the GCD (obviously SkS effected the GCD a tad)
but my memory isnt perfect, so it might not have been echo that was used to test.

EDIT: I should also mention ive seen examples where im wrong, but couldnt figure out what was the issue. the biggest being a macro for ground targeting, that targets <t> 14 times, and then ends on <me> for the final step, and no matter what, i can spam click the macro, it will ALWAYS land on me, and never the target. so in this example, its going at a much faster rate than 0.1 like you said

EDIT#2: I should also add that this same macro worked just fine in HW 90% of the time, and only in Shadowbringers when I decided to reuse it, did I notice issues.

Interesting! It definitely is possible that certain command might take longer than others. As someone who's worked in both programming and game design, my read is that the FF14 macro system feels like a bit of an afterthought, in that it seems to be sloppily designed and inaccessible. Which isn't to say that it can't be used to great effect, but it just isn't at a "AAA" level of quality. All of which is to say, it wouldn't shock me to hear that the /echo command takes more time due to text buffering or some other weirdness.

In my own testing, I focused mainly on lines that performed actions, so I'd make a macro that was entirely:

/ac "Stone"
/ac "Stone"
/ac "Stone"
etc

...and then I would try pressing this button at various times before the GCD was available to determine how large the queue window was with 15 attempts at casting Stone. Once I got a feel for how long that window was, I just divided it by 15 to get an estimate of how long each line was taking. But that was before I knew that framerate mattered! It was only later that I found others who had tested with different framerates, and being on PC they were able to manipulate their framerates to figure out that it was running 1 line per frame.

But it's interesting to hear that /echo may be an exception to this!

EDIT#3: And my current issue im seeing, that i hadnt seen until now in DT, is the same macro is now choosing to never trigger at all roughly 50% of the time. (Salted Earth on DRK, trying to weave it inbetween my GCD) As soon as I hit a GCD, i spam the button... and i do mean spam it. and my GCD will end, and i just go hit a new GCD, and it hadnt gone off. (I obviously cant double weave with it, but im trying to just single weave) If I use it when the GCD is over, then it will always trigger. but even if the GCD is 90% over, it only triggers 50%~ of the time.

My guess is that this is happening because of these two factors:

• The ability Salted Earth was updated to no longer target; it always casts at your feet now.
• Only one macro can be running at a time.

I've never tried to cast an action that has no target with a <t> macro, but my guess is that this line is never casting because of the <t>. I've also never tried an action that doesn't target with <me>, but since you say the overall macro sometimes succeeds, I'm guessing that the <me> line is the one that's successfully casting.

If you have a macro that's running and hasn't yet reached its end, and you press a macro button (even if it's the same macro), that first "run" of the macro will cancel and the second "run" will start from the beginning. So if you mash a macro button fast enough, it's possible for the last line of that macro to never run, because it keeps restarting before it gets there. Because of this behavior, I generally recommend against mashing macros; instead, I recommend learning the timing of when your inputs will be accepted, and pressing your macros once. This lets your macro reach the bottom of the macro if you've put functionality down there that is different than the stuff towards the top. And with macros like the one you've described here that are built to "queue" (for a 14 frame window it tries to cast Salted Earth with a target), there's no need to mash because the queue window gives you the leeway to not need to perfectly time your press.

So taking all of this together, you've got a macro that "queues" and tries to do Salted Earth with a target for 14 frames, and then on the 15th frame it instead tries to cast Salted Earth with you as the target. However, because the ability Salted Earth no longer accepts targets, for the first 14 frames after you hit this macro, there won't be any cast. It will only cast if it reaches that 15th frame at a time when casting is possible; since this is an ability, that just means there can't be an animation lock* from something else you cast recently. However, because you're mashing the macro, the macro run is sometimes being interrupted before it ever reaches the 15th line that will actually cast.

At least, that's my guess! I'd be curious to hear if changing every line to <me> solves the issue you're having.

Though that said, the better solution at this point is probably to not use a macro for this, since the default — and indeed, only — behavior of Salted Earth is to cast centered around your body now.

*On the off-chance that you're unfamiliar with animation lock, that's what folks often call the period after using a skill or ability when you can't cast another ability. Since you said that you press your ability macro immediately after you hit your GCD, that might be part of your issue. Even using all 15 frames, a macro will generally have a shorter queue window than a normal action; so if you wanted to weave with a button that's a macro, you might need to space your press out a bit more. How much will depend on your framerate, but if you play around with the timings a bit you can get a feel for it.

As an aside, it can be tricky to stop mashing buttons, but as someone who experiences chronic wrist pain, I really recommend it, because beyond making macros more reliable, reducing repeated presses will put less strain on your joints which can eventually add up to pain and disability in the years to come! I genuinely hope others can learn from my mistakes so that they never have to worry about if they'll need to give up their hobbies or use a computer for their job.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful, and I'll be curious to hear if this helps your issue, or if I can help with any other macro nuances you might run into!

EDIT:
I was curious so I sat down and did some tests. I found out that even with Salted Earth no longer being a targeted ability, <me> still works with it. And interestingly enough, <t> still works, too...but only in some situations.

With <t>, if I have a target, whether it's an player or an enemy, it will cast the ability. But if I have no target, then a macro with <t> will not cast. So in that way, this is the same behavior you were depending on with your macro: when you don't have a target, the 14 lines with <t> won't cast, which is why the 15th casts via <me>.

But if that were all that was going on, I would expect you to be getting similar results. That's encouraged me to re-read your post, and I'm wondering if I misunderstood what you meant by your GCD being 90% over. Being an ability, Salted Earth doesn't rely on the GCD, so as long as you're not animation locked, it should be able to be used any time.

If you have detailed information about exactly what I can do to try to reproduce this situation, I'd love to hear it. But also, since the real solution to your problem is just to use the normal ability Salted Earth rather than a macro, I would totally understand if you were ready to move on. Either way is fine by me, so long as you're happy with the results! ^^

[Collin_Sky]

Supreme laziness with a massive dose of copium if what you think you're doing isn't harming your ability to play the game properly.

[LilimoLimomo]

Supreme laziness with a massive dose of copium if what you think you're doing isn't harming your ability to play the game properly.

If there's any compelling evidence to support your claim, feel free to present it.

The irony is that of the two of us, I'm the one who's actually put in the work of doing hundreds of hours of testing and iterating to determine the nuance of how macros function and how to use them in ways that benefit players. I've seen the evidence against using macros, and I've debunked it.

Of course, there are ways to use macros that hinder players. If you write a bad macro, you're going to have a bad time. If you mash a macro that shouldn't be mashed, you're going to have a bad time. Try to get a macro to do something it can't really do? Gonna have a bad time.

But if you know what the pitfalls are you can avoid them, and if you know what the strengths are you can play to them. And that makes macros a powerful tool that players can choose to use when it suits their needs.

If you don't want to use macros, feel free; that's a choice you get to make, and it's valid. But hollow fear-mongering doesn't help anyone. If you genuinely think there's sound evidence that supports your claims, then you would be helping players to make the better choice by transparently sharing that evidence with them; after all, with actual evidence, they don't simply need to take an online stranger's word for it, and that can only strengthen your position.

[gllt]

Supreme laziness with a massive dose of copium if what you think you're doing isn't harming your ability to play the game properly.

As someone who agrees macros aren't the best for all the reasons listed: why do you care?

Let me be specific.

If you had to play with them in high level content, I get your gripes.
If you were informing a new player about the game and teaching them how to play optimally as a matter of education and to put them on the right track, I'd get your gripes.

But if this is a stranger you may never see once in your life who, for all we know, mainly does the dungeon content of this game for MSQ purposes, who are you protecting exactly? Are you preventing a DPS loss in Stone Vigil to protect some poor soul you don't know?

Are you defending the (correct) community stance that macros are heavily flawed because it's at some risk of slipping because someone is defending their use a little bit?

Okay yeah cool macros aren't great. We heard you and every other poster. If this person isn't in your static, I don't really care how you feel.

Let them use a macro. It's inefficient gameplay. Crazy.
Cause video games are very serious business I guess?