Yoshi P - Your next live letter, DT msq and the damage to the brand

[Zackneifein]

Bad story is bad.

A story can be objectively bad, due to many thing, pathing, writting, incoherence... And anyone can like a bad story.
I will not say it's the case for Dawntrail, in my case it's mid but just treat character that I love badly, starting with my own, so I don't like it.

True. Also irrelevant, given how DT has considerable character development, especially for Wuk Lumat, Koana, Bakool Ja Ja, and even Zoraal Ja though in a "negative" direction.

I'm sincerely curious about it, can you tell me more ? Because I don't see "considerable character development" about any of them.

• Wuk Lamat stop being insecure and that's it for her character development. She is still all about peace, love and family even with Sphene when she basically decided to become a genocidal AI.
• Koana always had a soft spot for his sister, still has and still want to import technological advancement to Tural, he just accept not to totally erase tradition, which isn't much either.
• Bakool Ja Ja don't have character development, he just isn't the same character at all after one discussion with Wuk Lamat and one revelation (The same one that basically launch a nuke into Tural without being sure that anyone could stop it).
• And Zoraal Ja was just bitter prodigal son from the beginning to the end, we were even spoiled by Krile.

[Willemdarke]

Your own personal opinion is not a fact. Sorry.

DT is the single worst reviewed expansion in FF14's history. This is not an opinion, it's a fact.
It is so bad that even popular streamers whose income depends on the games they cover doing well can't pretend to like it. This is not me saying their opinions matter more, it's pointing out the fact that even people who usually fake their opinions can't do in this case.

True. Also irrelevant, given how DT has considerable character development, especially for Wuk Lumat, Koana, Bakool Ja Ja, and even Zoraal Ja though in a "negative" direction.

Please elaborate. I'm not being sarcastic, I'd genuinely prefer to have my mind changed so I, too, can enjoy this story. Sadly from where I'm standing 'remaining virtually the same' is the arc most of these characters got.
Wow, Wuk Lamat is no longer utterly terrified of alpacas. Bakool's personality did a 180 from a genocidal playground bully to defender of the meek in the span of a single quest during which he did nothing, but explain his backstory. So compelling.

This part and everything that followed was amusing. "Shadowbringers didn't need old things to build on" --> proceeds to point out how 4 of the 5 "top" things from the story built on old things. Seriously...

I didn't list 'top things' in the story. I listed a few characters who can easily have 1 to 1 direct comparisons with DT characters in terms of story presense, development and character arcs (or lack there of in DT's case).

Also, Thancred was never a "minor" Scion. He was one of the originals who played a big role in ARR both looking out for Minfilia and ultimately getting possessed by Lahabrea.

Please. Arguably every scion, except for Alphi, was a 'minor Scion' pre-ShB.
Literally who, except Alphi (Urianger in HW post-MSQ and Lyse and Alysaie in SB) had any personal story, growth or development prior?

And yes, Thancred up to and including ShB is VERY much comparable to Krile up to and including DT. If you think Thancred being possessed was a compelling character arc FOR HIM, I guess everyone asking for Krile to have some development missed the amazing growth she had spending an expansion inside Zenos' test tube.

I'd also point out that I would never expect patch content or the first installment of an entire new story arc to be S-tier. That's just not realistic.

ShB and HW post-MSQ were S-tier. SB was literally better than its base game. ARR was a dud, sure, but at least had an epic finale.
We went from Estinien/Nidhogg to Tsukuyomi to Elidibus to.... Rubicante? And the water one, what was his name?? Yes patch content can and absolutely should be as good as any other MSQ and EW underdelivered. Same for 'first chapters' - We are all here because the first chapter, ARR, managed to hook us in for the long run.

Meh, this forum has been an echo chamber of negativity since long before the WoW exodus. Every expansion is the worst thing ever when it comes out, and posts are full of the usual cabal trashing it

It's a bit disingenuous to sweep valid negative feedback under the 'echo chamber' rug and.. 'cabal', really?

[franklinwi]

I think that's a little unfair to Thancred. His ARR possession is really underwhelming but the HW patch stuff where he's struggling with losing Minfilia feels real and rooted in his feelings of guilt re: her father's death. The burden he's taken upon himself to protect her, and his frustration that he's failed her. Yes, the arc continues in Shadowbringers, and Alphinaud and Estinien (and Ysayle and Hraesvelgr) have better HW character development, but give him a *little* credit.

[DynnDiablos]

When it comes to Wuk Lamat, I think it has become obvious the VA, Sena, is a public relations problem. I know patches are recorded and planned well in advance, so we should expect Wuk Lamat in 7.! and 7.2 at minimum, but I wouldn't be surprised if the game pivots from her character and that whole group anyway when we get the mid-post expansion pivot to 8.0. There really is no reason to keep Wuk Lamat around anyway.

[Striker44]

I'm sincerely curious about it, can you tell me more ? Because I don't see "considerable character development" about any of them.

• Wuk Lamat stop being insecure and that's it for her character development. She is still all about peace, love and family even with Sphene when she basically decided to become a genocidal AI.
• Koana always had a soft spot for his sister, still has and still want to import technological advancement to Tural, he just accept not to totally erase tradition, which isn't much either.
• Bakool Ja Ja don't have character development, he just isn't the same character at all after one discussion with Wuk Lamat and one revelation (The same one that basically launch a nuke into Tural without being sure that anyone could stop it).
• And Zoraal Ja was just bitter prodigal son from the beginning to the end, we were even spoiled by Krile.

Perhaps it boils down to a matter of personal opinion, but here's my takes on those:

-Wuk Lumat does far more than just "stop being insecure." At story's opening, aside from her insecurity and complete lack of self-confidence, she also doesn't believe she actually has anything to bring to the table. She knows he has empathy, but she doesn't think it means anything. It's over the course of her journey that she comes to realize her empathy is a key trait, and one of the key things that made her father a good ruler, too. Furthermore, at first she only really knows about the various cultures of Tural through those who had moved to Tuliyollal. With each new feat, by actually traveling outside the capital to their actual homelands, she gains a huge amount of knowledge about the peoples that make up Tural.

-Koana's change from "innovation is everything" to "there is merit in balancing innovation with tradition" is a fundamental shift. To me, that is huge in a person. I'll also add that he goes the reverse of Wuk Lumat, starting as being over-confident and not realizing there are things he lacks, to reaching his own understanding that others bring important things to the table. He ends the journey a noticeably more humble person than when he started.

-Bakool Ja Ja could have made any number of choices after learning the truth of his society. Given his lifelong training as effectively a weapon, he could have gone down a similar path as Zoraal Ja. Instead, he chose to actively support those he had seen as "enemies" and put the people of Tuliyollal first in joining their defense, a complete change from the self-centered person he started as.

-Zoraal Ja was bitter, but did change significantly in the opposite direction as Bakool Ja Ja. Zoraal Ja was in charge of the military and still a major supporter of Tuliyollal despite his insecurity. He turns from that to actively killing them, and in the final trial, even shows a willingness to kill his own son. The change is in a "negative" direction, but the Zoraal Ja at the start of the story and the one at the end have changed significantly in my opinion.

[Striker44]

DT is the single worst reviewed expansion in FF14's history. This is not an opinion, it's a fact.

A "fact" that is just an agglomeration of opinions is worthless in that regard. And that's not even considering how statistically those "reviews" are just a voluntary sample, well-known for being the most unreliable approach to gathering accurate data.

Heck, if we want to go that route, I could point out the "fact" that DT had the highest sales of any FFXIV expansion. That's not an opinion; it's a fact.

Or I could point out how Steam data shows DT has had better retention of players after the first month than either EW or ShB did. That's also not an opinion; it's a fact.

I also believe the Steam data isn't really worth anything in general, so I wouldn't actually use it as "proof" of anything. Just like how the "reviews" you reference are meaningless when other metrics strongly suggest people are very much enjoying DT.

It is so bad that even popular streamers whose income depends on the games they cover doing well can't pretend to like it. This is not me saying their opinions matter more, it's pointing out the fact that even people who usually fake their opinions can't do in this case.

Or - shocking thought - they're just faking their opinions now because they know the specific segment of the population that is their followers wants people to hate on the game. I love how you seem to think they either could never genuinely enjoy the game, or just fake their opinions regularly, but when they happen to say what you specifically want to hear, now they *must* of course be telling nothing but the truth. L.O.L.

Please elaborate. I'm not being sarcastic, I'd genuinely prefer to have my mind changed so I, too, can enjoy this story. Sadly from where I'm standing 'remaining virtually the same' is the arc most of these characters got.

Check my post right above this one. I elaborated a bit on the "big four."

Literally who, except Alphi (Urianger in HW post-MSQ and Lyse and Alysaie in SB) had any personal story, growth or development prior?

I just have to chuckle when you yet again say "this didn't happen...well, except for all of these times that it did...just umm...don't count those..."

ShB and HW post-MSQ were S-tier. SB was literally better than its base game. ARR was a dud, sure, but at least had an epic finale.

These are - once again - just personal opinions. I fear we are just going to continue talking in circles until acknowledgment can be made separating opinions from facts.

We went from Estinien/Nidhogg to Tsukuyomi to Elidibus to.... Rubicante? And the water one, what was his name??

I think the more apt comparison there would be to Golbez, since you're naming the "biggest" player in each of the other scenarios.

It's a bit disingenuous to sweep valid negative feedback under the 'echo chamber' rug and.. 'cabal', really?

It's less a matter of "sweeping something under the rug" and more a matter of looking at it practically. When someone gives feedback about a specific piece of the game and provides a suggestion they'd like to see, it's useful. When someone goes to ridiculous hyperbole, trashes everything about the game, and demands they fundamentally change it to suit that person...that's an immature take from someone so far gone they really need to just move on for everyone's sake, including their own health. Same goes with personally insulting the developers, voice actors, etc., often with "arguments" that ultimately boil down to "you wrote a different story than the one I wanted, therefore it's bad and you're bad."

And yes, I think "cabal" is an apt word to describe what goes on around here. Look at how they cheer each other on and "upvote" comments en masse that just belittle the devs, other posters, etc.. When the group cheers on people acting like kids on a grade-school playground, I think they deserve to get called out on it. So yeah, by word choice fits I do believe.

[chizLemons]

Perhaps it boils down to a matter of personal opinion, but here's my takes on those:

-Wuk Lumat does far more than just "stop being insecure." At story's opening, aside from her insecurity and complete lack of self-confidence, she also doesn't believe she actually has anything to bring to the table. She knows he has empathy, but she doesn't think it means anything. It's over the course of her journey that she comes to realize her empathy is a key trait, and one of the key things that made her father a good ruler, too. Furthermore, at first she only really knows about the various cultures of Tural through those who had moved to Tuliyollal. With each new feat, by actually traveling outside the capital to their actual homelands, she gains a huge amount of knowledge about the peoples that make up Tural.

There's a lot of people that don't see that considerable character development you're speaking of, and if there's that many people that don't see the main thing a character should be about, then it's a story problem, not an opinion difference.

I'll focus on Wuk Lamat, but this works for everyone.

Everything you said here, are things Wuk Lamat came out to us and told us. She said she was insecure, and didn't believe she had anything to offer. She told us she realized her love for the people was what she had in common with her father. She learned about the cultures, and told us how she was learning every single step of the way. Repeteadly.

But where is the proof of that? When do we SEE that change? How does any of that challenge her world view? Can you point out one moment where her misbelief of not being valuable and feeling inferior to her brothers, actually leads her to a wrong decision that make her realize she is wrong? Can you point out one moment where she was able to see her own value, other than we picking a dialogue choice that says "don't compare yourself to others" in the campfire scene?

When people talk about character development in stories, it actually involves change. The one internal conflict she had at the start, was not believing she was good enough. Where did that lack of confidence ever cause any trouble to her? Did she make any bad decisions based on that lack of confidence? The only notable change is that she stops talking about it, to then start talking more about how she loves peace and happiness instead, which she was already doing anyway. There are no changes in how she acts. We're told she is confident now, over and over, with dialogue, and dialogue only.

Considerable would be if she made bad decisions based on her lack of confidence, or that caused any kind of conflict to the story, if it guided her choices and actions, and then she had to confront her views with the consequences of her actions. Character development usually includes characters facing their fears and changing because of that. The most notable fear we see her confronting is boat travel.

[Fhaerron]

Any guess on when the next LL be? About a month something?

[dspguy]

There's a lot of people that don't see that considerable character development you're speaking of, and if there's that many people that don't see the main thing a character should be about, then it's a story problem, not an opinion difference.

The playerbase is in the millions. The complaints are in the thousands. And, generally speaking, people commonly rant and complain, but don't praise. Like others have said... "just look at the forums and the active threads."

Exactly. Do just that. Then consider maybe 1 in a 1000 have issues. Maybe even 1 in 100. If 99 of my customers are happy and 1 isn't, I'm doing a great job.

[Zackneifein]

-Wuk Lumat does far more than just "stop being insecure." At story's opening, aside from her insecurity and complete lack of self-confidence, she also doesn't believe she actually has anything to bring to the table. She knows he has empathy, but she doesn't think it means anything....

I can see what you are saying, but understanding that her empathy is her strongest trait is what I said, she just stopped being insecure about her qualities. That's weak when it come to character development. She is never confronted with clear hostility that will make her think other than Zoraal Ja who is a genocidal war freak who is clearly wrong, everyone end up loving her, even those who where hostile to Bakool Ja Ja.

Her character arc is that she was everything Bakool Ja Ja wanted as a successor, but lacked self-confidence. At the end she is validated about everything. It's like saying "perfectionist" as a default trait during a job interview.

Gaining knowledge about the culture of her people isn't character development, that's just learning things. She doesn't change because of that.

-Koana's change from "innovation is everything" to "there is merit in balancing innovation with tradition" is a fundamental shift. To me, that is huge in a person. I'll also add that he goes the reverse of Wuk Lumat, starting as being over-confident and not realizing there are things he lacks, to reaching his own understanding that others bring important things to the table. He ends the journey a noticeably more humble person than when he started.

Fundamental therorically, but far too easily done.

-Bakool Ja Ja could have made any number of choices after learning the truth of his society. Given his lifelong training as effectively a weapon, he could have gone down a similar path as Zoraal Ja. Instead, he chose to actively support those he had seen as "enemies" and put the people of Tuliyollal first in joining their defense, a complete change from the self-centered person he started as.

I understand, but once again it's far to easy for him to switch from "bully that is ready to drop bombs on people" to "It's not that bad to be a hero".

-Zoraal Ja was bitter, but did change significantly in the opposite direction as Bakool Ja Ja. Zoraal Ja was in charge of the military and still a major supporter of Tuliyollal despite his insecurity...

He was always going in the opposite direction of Bakool Ja Ja, from day one. He was a military freak who wanted to spread war to attain "true peace", everything is father wasn't, and he remain like that until the end. Bakool Ja was the possibility for him to have development, but they are barely seeing each other in the MSQ.

If we compare all that to Estinien and Ysayle in Heavensward only, that's a cruel comparison for Dawntrail in my opinion.