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  1. #11
    Player
    PercibelTheren's Avatar
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    May 2023
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    1,026
    Character
    Percibel Theren
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    I agree with your point about every actually interesting NPC we meet being killed off. That annoyed the absolute hell out of me in Dawntrail. The only NPC I liked who has NOT been killed off immediately is Shale.
    (5)

  2. #12
    Player
    Iscah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    14,047
    Character
    Aurelie Moonsong
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Carin-Eri View Post
    In fact the wiki description of the event in question says this:
    A fan wiki is not official and any exact choice of wording may be down to personal (mis)interpretation.

    I'm not saying that's the case specifically here, I will say this to anyone who points to "the wiki" as a source to settle debates over canon.
    (5)
    Last edited by Iscah; 08-20-2024 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Missing words

  3. #13
    Player
    Carin-Eri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Old Sharlayan
    Posts
    1,955
    Character
    Carin Eri
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscah View Post
    A fan wiki is not official and any exact choice of wording may be down to personal (mis)interpretation.

    I'm not saying that's the case specifically here, I will say this anyone points to "the wiki" as a source to settle debates over canon.
    Fair point - I guess that wasn't the best example really.

    Still, I do maintain the points I made aside from that.
    (0)

  4. #14
    Player
    Cleretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Location
    Solution Eight (it's not as good)
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    2,938
    Character
    Ein Dose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Alchemist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by PercibelTheren View Post
    I agree with your point about every actually interesting NPC we meet being killed off. That annoyed the absolute hell out of me in Dawntrail. The only NPC I liked who has NOT been killed off immediately is Shale.
    This is an interesting complaint to me, because one that really manifested in Endwalker especially (but was also leveled quite accurately at Stormblood and Shadowbringers) was the remarkable bloodlessness of it; that despite the mortal peril and stakes of it all, there weren't really a lot of deaths.

    Now Dawntrail actually does have a fair amount of deaths, and yet we're complaining about that too. I know it's unlikely to be the same people complaining, but how is there a balance to be found here? Or is there not a balance, and the community at large is ultimately happy with a Shadowbringers-style claim of mortal stakes, but the only deaths are nobodies that existed for at most three scenes beforehand?
    (7)

  5. #15
    Player
    StealthPaladin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Limsa
    Posts
    90
    Character
    T'anehr Nunh
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleretic View Post
    This is an interesting complaint to me.....Dawntrail actually does have a fair amount of deaths, and yet we're complaining about that too. I know it's unlikely to be the same people complaining, but how is there a balance to be found here? Or is there not a balance, and the community at large is ultimately happy with a Shadowbringers-style claim of mortal stakes, but the only deaths are nobodies that existed for at most three scenes beforehand?
    It was sold to us as a fun, chill, vacation with new modes of storytelling.

    They used beat up refurbished story elements, half of it was us watching things we could have easily prevented, half of it was us being forced to do the bad things ourselves

    I was a huge fan of Shadowbringers and Endwalker story. They at least meant something. The deaths in Dawntrail you could see a million miles ahead.

    and as per
    Quote Originally Posted by Carin-Eri View Post
    ...she certainly isn't talking to herself and it's a bit difficult to give power to defeat a foe to someone who is dead.
    Whether you want to say we are on the brink or past the pall, not really a huge issue but if we were just KO then a regular old res would do the trick wouldn't it. But look take that scene however you want -- the point remains they could have applied the same logic to electrope just fine.

    They already say electrope's autolife just converts ambient electric aether into the different elements -- just like our crystals -- but for SOME reason that has nothing to do with its usage. Instead it sucks up souls? the heck logic is that?

    Fact is the writers just chose to make it depressing instead of optimistic. If they felt like it they could have used any number of plot devices to be lighthearted instead of depressing. I was sold a vacation and I am sick of feeling guilty for progressing story.

    We are the killer of dreams and civilizations. We could have stopped Zoraal Ja about 50 different times, a few of which we even seem aware of this but.. wouldn't want to step on any toes you know. Gotta let character development happen at risk of many civilian causalities - or else poor rich kids wont have enough life experience.

    It isn't just so many died, but we killed them, directly or by sitting and letting things unfold. It is our fault that Bakool Ja Ja woke up the bird. It is our fault that Gulool Ja Ja, and it is our fault Cahciua died, twice, that Namikka died and anyone that was separated by the distortion. It is our fault the city was attacked because we had about a bajillion and one chances to stop it and knew dang well who the two problem kids were.

    Could have thumped them on the head and moved on, but no. nope. We're just soooo neutral we wouldn't do that, but somehow we take it on ourselves to then extinguish a whole race. How are they any less than the Omicrons even? They did not think this through for nothin'.
    (1)

  6. #16
    Player
    PorxiesRCute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    342
    Character
    Nekhii Qestir
    World
    Kraken
    Main Class
    Botanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by StealthPaladin View Post
    Whether you want to say we are on the brink or past the pall, not really a huge issue but if we were just KO then a regular old res would do the trick wouldn't it. But look take that scene however you want -- the point remains they could have applied the same logic to electrope just fine.

    They already say electrope's autolife just converts ambient electric aether into the different elements -- just like our crystals -- but for SOME reason that has nothing to do with its usage. Instead it sucks up souls? the heck logic is that?
    I think you're confused about electrope. Electrope is totally separate from the regulators and the Endless.
    (3)

  7. #17
    Player Kuroka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Limsa
    Posts
    3,702
    Character
    Ulala Ula
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 90
    Im pretty sure its the source to use such tech in the first place lol

    Still at least from my first play through... its weird, so they need souls to fix you soul after you would have died, but only if its unnatural causes, they cant heal some sicknesses or old age.
    Good that sets a limit and just makes sure you live your live till the end, ok, fair... but why souls? And whats the limit? the third raid said he did some damage that could not just be healed, so... theres a limit to your resurrection?
    Like get stabbed and youre good, but get sliced into two and youre dead..?

    It just felt too rushed...
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player
    Catwho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,851
    Character
    Katarh Mest
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroka View Post
    Im pretty sure its the source to use such tech in the first place lol

    Still at least from my first play through... its weird, so they need souls to fix you soul after you would have died, but only if its unnatural causes, they cant heal some sicknesses or old age.
    Good that sets a limit and just makes sure you live your live till the end, ok, fair... but why souls? And whats the limit? the third raid said he did some damage that could not just be healed, so... theres a limit to your resurrection?
    Like get stabbed and youre good, but get sliced into two and youre dead..?
    Yeah, get sliced in two and you're dead. Teledji Adeledji can attest to that much.

    A person has three types of aether: body aether (corporeal), soul aether, and then the memory aether that is Eorzeans/Etheryians used to think was kind of stuck to the soul aether.

    But even back in Shadowbringers we learned that corporeal aether and soul aether and memory aether can all be handled differently, if you're careful. We put both the Crystal Exarch's soul AND memories into his soul shard and trucked it back to the Crystal Tower on the source, which is why the tower was able to let us in (it recognized the blood of the Allagan royal line in the soul crystal container thingy.)

    Emet-Selch, Hermes, and Hythlodaeous had their memory aether fucked around with but kept their soul aether perfectly intact thanks to Kronos. The Forum members, too, locked their memory aether under a binding spell without touching their soul aether. Those spells all dissolve in the aetherial sea so you get your missing memories back... IF the soul ever makes it there.

    The unnatural problem with Alexandria is that they broke the cycle with the aetherial seal. The memory aether is stripped away from the souls, then stored in the cloud. Instead of locking away bad memories, they stole them and uploaded them. The Endless are all unplugged, but are those memories still intact in the unplugged storage? Can those souls ever be reunited with their lost memories in the aetherial sea? So many questions.
    (2)

  9. #19
    Player
    TheRealQuah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    274
    Character
    Q'hahtoa Quah
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by StealthPaladin View Post
    They used beat up refurbished story elements, half of it was us watching things we could have easily prevented, half of it was us being forced to do the bad things ourselves

    Whether you want to say we are on the brink or past the pall, not really a huge issue but if we were just KO then a regular old res would do the trick wouldn't it. But look take that scene however you want -- the point remains they could have applied the same logic to electrope

    Fact is the writers just chose to make it depressing instead of optimistic. If they felt like it they could have used any number of plot devices to be lighthearted instead of depressing. I was sold a vacation and I am sick of feeling guilty for progressing story.

    We are the killer of dreams and civilizations. We could have stopped Zoraal Ja about 50 different times, a few of which we even seem aware of this but.. wouldn't want to step on any toes you know. Gotta let character development happen at risk of many civilian causalities - or else poor rich kids wont have enough life experience.

    It isn't just so many died, but we killed them, directly or by sitting and letting things unfold. It is our fault that Bakool Ja Ja woke up the bird. It is our fault that Gulool Ja Ja, and it is our fault Cahciua died, twice, that Namikka died and anyone that was separated by the distortion. It is our fault the city was attacked because we had about a bajillion and one chances to stop it and knew dang well who the two problem kids were.

    Could have thumped them on the head and moved on, but no. nope. We're just soooo neutral we wouldn't do that, but somehow we take it on ourselves to then extinguish a whole race. How are they any less than the Omicrons even? They did not think this through for nothin'.
    If you haven't picked up in the whole story so far the importance and power of souls, then I don't know what else to say. Life need a soul. The Alexandrians are siphoning souls from Etheirys and using them to bestow extra lives. If you can't see how this is bad then I don't know what to say.

    Also stop saying we killed people. We did not. They were already dead. We interacted with ghosts of the long dead that were draining the life force of the planet to give them form. Cahciua died long before we even got there. Letting them stay like that means consigning the star to die, thus everyone in existence.

    You also cannot say that we indirectly killed people by letting Zoraal Ja live at the start. We are not an executioner, deciding who deserves life dependent on what they might do. In fact there was not much foreshadowing to Zoraal Ja going so crazy. In the dungeon we meet him he's basically "lol, you can climb up the mountain this other way". He wasn't much harm until he completely lost it, but we are not there to judge who may do bad things in the future.

    But you keep stating inaccuracies and then doubling down when you are told the truth of things.
    (8)

  10. #20
    Player
    Banggugyangu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    200
    Character
    Amelia Aensland
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Pictomancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by StealthPaladin View Post
    I thought Endwalker was well done but not if you can't let go of that constant freaking nihilism. It wasn't enough to destroy the stories like this, but it's been creeping more and more and more into every FF release since ff10.
    Spoken like someone who's never played any other FF game.

    Final Fantasy II: An army literally from Hell is set upon the world, and if the Warriors of Light didn't defeat the ruler of them, the world would have been annihilated.
    Final Fantasy III: Xande, in his search of eternal life, is willing to sacrifice the entire world to the World of Darkness. The Warriors of Light straight up DIE, and are only brought back to life because Doga and Unei sacrifice themselves to revive them.
    Final Fantasy IV: A man is controlled by a being comprised of pure hatred to commit literal genocide. Had Cecil and his crew not stepped in, the world would have been totally destroyed.
    Final Fantasy VI: The world is literally destroyed.....
    Final Fantasy VII: Had Cloud not overcome his past trauma and confronted Sephiroth (Who literally killed the last surviving member of an entire race), and the spirit of Aerith not assisted in the summoning of Holy, the entire world would have been destroyed.
    Final Fantasy X: The world is in a constant cycle of building and destruction in a system devised by Yu Yevon where one companion of the summoner, who has to sacrifice him/herself as part of all this, becomes the very creature destroying the world.
    Final Fantasy XI: A Galka talekeeper who was betrayed by traveling companions becomes the Shadowlord, who starts a war intent on destroying humanity. A couple 10000+ year old siblings from an ancient civilization seek to open the path to the gods at the expense of the world. Others from that same ancient civilization seek to unshackle the God of Destruction in order to usurp his power, unleashing an angry diety upon the world that is eager to get revenge on the very civilization that shackled him in the first place.
    Final Fantasy XII: Humanity has already become enslaved to Fal'cie, nearly all-powerful beings, and are essentially glorified livestock.

    Which Final Fantasy games DON'T have nihilistic plots?
    (3)

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