M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Chasingstars]

[ForsakenRoe]

I mean this has been done with TOP, P9S, P1S and P2S I believe. M1S has also been cleared with 8 tanks

E4S was also cleared with no healers. I am pretty sure P12S got cleared with no healers too, but I'm struggling to find a video (only a load of various reddit comments saying 'it happened').

If this is truly a 'fight design' problem, it's kind of a damning indictment of SE's direction that it keeps happening in all these different fights. More likely, is the thing that is the constant between each of these clears: The jobs themselves, and their design direction. As they say, 'if everywhere you go, you can smell sh#t, the first thing to do is check your shoes'

[Maltothoris]

E4S was also cleared with no healers. I am pretty sure P12S got cleared with no healers too, but I'm struggling to find a video (only a load of various reddit comments saying 'it happened').

If this is truly a 'fight design' problem, it's kind of a damning indictment of SE's direction that it keeps happening in all these different fights. More likely, is the thing that is the constant between each of these clears: The jobs themselves, and their design direction. As they say, 'if everywhere you go, you can smell sh#t, the first thing to do is check your shoes'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etKYa3K70ek Here is the p12s clear with no healers. My one point of contention on the e4s clear was this was in 5.1.

Edit: Looking back at it the change to the phoenix healing was by changing the duration of everlasting flight from 20 to 21 seconds so the healing only went up by 100 from 600 to 700.

[Aravell]

That's the problem.

(And no, my cohealers didn't carry me, they were on par. I don't parse but I went to check it because I was asking myself "Is this it? Where is the damage?")

As a long time healer main, I can tell you that the problem has existed since post-ShB.

In this tier, M4S, the hardest fight we have now in DT, I casted one Concitation before every instance of raidwide damage, that's not even required, it's just overkill. Yet I still spent 42.33% of my total actions on Broil IV alone.

How anyone can have any fun with the current 'mash one button for half your playtime' design of healers? I'll never know.

[sindriiisgaming]

It was also beaten without melee dps on week 1. Does that mean melee are a usless role now?

[Nadda]

It was also beaten without melee dps on week 1. Does that mean melee are a usless role now?

It's a great big cope people use to reinforce their beliefs.

It's a very poor way to have a confirmation bias.

When you should really look at what the standard group composition is which is more traditional to see that Healers are indeed a necessity for most groups.
As I've already made plain in my previous posts on the subject in this thread.

I'm not sure if my concept was too high brow for most people to understand but essentially if healerless were to become the staple best way to clear content I'd be concerned.

But because it's not - it's an outlier that doesn't really matter and shouldn't be used as a confirmation of subjective feelings some may have on the state of healing that isn't shared outside this vocal and incoherent minority that is anything Healer Strike Adjacent.

[Turtledeluxe]

It was also beaten without melee dps on week 1. Does that mean melee are a usless role now?

Depends on whether it was more efficient imo, which is doubtful. And in any case, DPS is something every job has by necessity. If anything pointing this out just makes the case further homogenization is needed for true balance i.e. stack DPS with healing and mitigation.

But because it's not - it's an outlier that doesn't really matter and shouldn't be used as a confirmation of subjective feelings some may have on the state of healing that isn't shared outside this vocal and incoherent minority that is anything Healer Strike Adjacent.

Where is your evidence that this is an outlier or otherwise requires expertise? People keep saying this. So where is the evidence?

And I would point out, saying a problem doesn't matter because consequences are occasional is a fallacy.

There's also nothing subjective about it. You can either clear the content without healers or you can't. What's subjective is your assumption that any given numbers of players can't do it.

[GartredZW]

It was also beaten without melee dps on week 1. Does that mean melee are a usless role now?

That's like saying "The tier was beaten without Reaper. Reaper is useless now."
There area seven other classes that can do what melee DPS do, but differently. Maybe it's not as efficient, but it sure is viable.
There shouldn't be other classes outside of Healer that can do healing just as good as a healer. That's the whole point of a healer. It's why they exist in the first place. Just like how Tanks are by far the most durable of all roles. They can't just make that irrelevant by giving an invuln, provoke, and shirk to a melee DPS, because otherwise why would you bother with a tank?

Most players aren't able to clear healerless, but the fact that it's possible without best in slot gear less than two weeks after the content launched just proves there's a problem.
Point me to the DPS-less run, or the Tank-less run.

[Striker44]

If this is truly a 'fight design' problem, it's kind of a damning indictment of SE's direction that it keeps happening in all these different fights. More likely, is the thing that is the constant between each of these clears: The jobs themselves, and their design direction. As they say, 'if everywhere you go, you can smell sh#t, the first thing to do is check your shoes'

Fortunately, the "if" part of that scenario isn't an issue. All we have here is what exists in practically every game that has ever existed, which is a select few highly skilled players able to accomplish things that 999 out of 1000 others won't be able to do. We don't say the original "Super Mario Bros.", one of the most famous games of all time, is horribly designed because a small group of people has managed to speedrun in it about 5 minutes. What it's really provided is hours upon hours of enjoyment for millions of people. Same deal here. When you can start grabbing random DF parties, throwing them into M4S (or any of the current tier Savage fights) without a healer, and seeing them reliably clear it, then there's a real issue. But what top-tier players who have been playing the game for a long time and have expert coordination are able to do is irrelevant other than to congratulate them on accomplishing something.

How anyone can have any fun with the current 'mash one button for half your playtime' design of healers? I'll never know.

Because most players aren't doing M4S with skilled groups. The typical player is doing normal content with random other typical players, who take a good deal of unnecessary damage, don't perform optimally to clear things fast or use mitigation in the right places, don't use self-sustain or the ability to heal others on certain non-healer classes, etc.. Some people also just like being the one to make other people's health bars go up, and have no issue with spamming a spell as filler in the interim. Step 1 is acknowledging that other people can fact enjoy things that you personally don't.

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

It was also beaten without melee dps on week 1. Does that mean melee are a usless role now?

BLM/Pictomancer (red jobs) doing as much damage as melees (red jobs) is okay, it's healthy actually.

Tanks (blue jobs) and DPS (red jobs) doing all the healing while still meeting the damage check so healers (green jobs) are sandbagging by existing (since you could be another DPS/Tank) is not okay.

Hope this helps!