M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Rithy255]

Well let’s look at the examples you provided

Divine veil- it’s a mitigation and bring a shield it’s designed as an Omni mitigation, totally fair and not overpowered. Then it has a heal……..why? Why does your AOE mitigation need a heal. If you look at WAR it’s even more egregious why does it need a regen as well

Its a weak 400 potency (Which tanks don't have the maim and mend passive unlike healers), on a 90s, Healers have skills that heal and mitigate so why does their AOE healing need mitigation? The holy knight class with strong white magic having one aoe heal on 90s... Crazy! Theirs nothing wrong with abilities having multiple effects, I think it takes it too far when Mitigation abilities like Holy Sheltron have two stacked mitigation effects, I'd personally like it to be something like a consistent 20% Mit with a regen attached to it, but the regen itself isn't even the issue.

A lot of your comments about tank sustain and numbers compared to healing don't even take into account that 500 potency on a tank is way less healing then 500 potency on a healer. That and the fact that healers will have a lot of targetable cooldowns while a tank will have 1 or 2 targetable ones at the best, with a bunch of mitigation Bloat like rampart.

I again will say that it's not "sustain" or even one cooldown that gives out a weak aoe heal thats the issue with tanks, it's the absurd mitigation ontop of that.

[GrimGale]

>You first improve your healer skill by not using GCD healing
>You then improve your healer skill by not using Big healing CDs
>You then improve your healer skill by not using oGCD healing
>You then improve your healer skill by not playing a healer

[Wyti]

We all know healers heals are more powerful than tanks or dps.
But tanks are suited to mitigate big damage spikes which is the damage profile of most encounters.
Tank's weaker heals are also powerful and frequent enough to handle the current damage profile of the hardest content in the game on the second week, done by a group far from optimized, who got in their kill a killtime that would be in the top25 with death and bad plays.

How much worse does it needs to be for healer to be remembered as people to treat decently. Nobody even noticed how AST provide ~10% higher rdps than WHM while we saw PF drop PLD / WAR for doing 5% less damage multiple times.
Nobody cares about healer is the sad truth, but everyone pretend there is no problem, because they sure as heal don't want to be the one who has to play healer when the current base stop being selfless to dare play this dying role.

[Ozmandis]

We all know healers heals are more powerful than tanks or dps.
But tanks are suited to mitigate big damage spikes which is the damage profile of most encounters.
Tank's weaker heals are also powerful and frequent enough to handle the current damage profile of the hardest content in the game on the second week, done by a group far from optimized, who got in their kill a killtime that would be in the top25 with death and bad plays.

How much worse does it needs to be for healer to be remembered as people to treat decently. Nobody even noticed how AST provide ~10% higher rdps than WHM while we saw PF drop PLD / WAR for doing 5% less damage multiple times.
Nobody cares about healer is the sad truth, but everyone pretend there is no problem, because they sure as heal don't want to be the one who has to play healer when the current base stop being selfless to dare play this dying role.

I think the day they will react is when their own job is gonna be useless. It's the same with a lot of oppressed people IRL, most people don't care until it concerns them too. They can't understand the problem because they are not the ones suffering from it. Just look at the reaction of tank mains that think it's perfectly ok for them to be self sufficient in every aspect yet want to deny it to other roles. Nobody should be ok with that, even non-healers because SE may very well go after your job in some patch and then you are going to cry alone because everybody that cared would have left already.

[Nadda]

FFXiV and job design are not rocket science, get off your high horse. Elitism isn't going to stop the feedback.

Tanks are broken on every diffculty level btw, not just high end.

I'd also note consider that the meta for an encounter can in fact be different from what is "tradtional". Many players run traditional, but you're assuming that is because of skill level when it could also just be lack of knowledge or motivation. The game actively pushes traditional setup 24/7. I'm not saying that this is true for this encounter, maybe it isn't. But being convenient and being the literal meta based on hard data are separate things. Saying things like "I need to see it more often for it to be true" is a fallacy.

Lastly the players you are praising here use addons.

I don't think I've said anything to suggest elitism on my part but if I did I'd apologize. For the record, I'm not separating myself from the casual audience that frequents these forums and I've also stated that regardless of skill level doesn't make one opinion more superior to the other. We are all at different steps in our journey.

Also to clarify I was arguing against the idea people only do traditional comps because of a "Skill issue" which infers that those who don't go healerless comp are by default worse than other more skilled players.

The reason I argue against it this is twofold.

One because we are not the pinnacle of players you can't dismiss the majority player base with such a lens AND if we are to do so then you must acknowledge healerless strategies as being the exception, not the rule.
Since it suggests a niche player base of high-performing individuals outside the normal paradigm.
Part of this whole Healer argument is arguing that Healers lack relevance as a whole not only in rare exceptions, but the central focus of this thread itself is a rare exception thus making it a moot point.

Secondly, Metas in gaming is formed through community consensus on the most effective strategies, characters, or loadouts based on game mechanics.

So what we can ascertain from this is that if the meta was to play without healers was indeed the most effective strategy it would be the prevailing strategy even on a PF level, because Players will go down the path of least resistance always.
What we find however in PF and most average statics is the Traditional Comp of Two Tanks, Two Healers (1 Pure/1 Shield), Four DPS (2 Melee and 2 Ranged)

The meta suggests that the easiest way to clear content is the way how the Developers intended it which is the traditional comp. Which is how the developers test their content. This reinforces that the balance of jobs in the game and the role Healers play is at a healthy state not a defective one which is what is being argued here.

And if we are to take on Hard data all you'd have to do is tally the Data Centers based on what type of parties players are looking for.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find alternatives from the norm and have a very easy time finding the traditional comps with very loose exceptions.
(say people who don't care what DPS they have or what healers they have but the two tank, two healer, four dps standard remain)

And to address your last point I don't think I've been outwardly praising anybody specifically.

[Turtledeluxe]

I don't think I've said anything

I'm not really concerned with opinions, just the facts.

against[/U] the idea people only do traditional comps because of a "Skill issue" which infers that those who don't go healerless comp are by default worse than other more skilled players.

One because we are not the pinnacle of players you can't dismiss the majority player base with such a lens AND if we are to do so then you must acknowledge healerless strategies as being the exception, not the rule.
Since it suggests a niche player base of high-performing individuals outside the normal paradigm.
Part of this whole Healer argument is arguing that Healers lack relevance as a whole not only in rare exceptions, but the central focus of this thread itself is a rare exception thus making it a moot point.

And what I am telling you is that this reasoning is, actually, based on fallacy. Just because you don't see it more often doesn't prove it isn't the meta and doesn't prove healer is only broken under limited scenarios.

, Metas in gaming is formed through community consensus on the most effective strategies, characters, or loadouts based on game mechanics.

This is misleading. Meta is typically an objective optimal strategy based on metrics. What you're describing here is a trend. There is a reason the two terms are distinct.

what we can ascertain from this is that if the meta was to play without healers was indeed the most effective strategy it would be the prevailing strategy even on a PF level, because Players will go down the path of least resistance always.
What we find however in PF and most average statics is the Traditional Comp of Two Tanks, Two Healers (1 Pure/1 Shield), Four DPS (2 Melee and 2 Ranged)

"Players will go down the path of least resistance always", "We need to see it more to be true". All problematic thinking. Again, could be correct, just not how you prove that including healers is the most efficient way to beat any given encounter objectively.

meta suggests that the easiest way to clear content is the way how the Developers intended it which is the traditional comp. Which is how the developers test their content. This reinforces that the balance of jobs in the game and the role Healers play is at a healthy state not a defective one which is what is being argued here.

The thread is not about the easiest way to clear content. It's about how efficiently content can be cleared absent healers. This might be why you're confused.

The thread is also not just about healers, it's also about tanks and both roles in the context of the trinity. Calling the whole thread useless based on one single factor (ie that this hasn't happened much yet) seems irrelevant. You say you aren't praising anyone but you keep implying only exceptional players can do this. Yet the players who did this, literally cheated in this case.

[Azurarok]

the path of least resistance is just reading a guide and following it

like mentioned earlier in the thread if someone does write up a guide for a no-healer or solo-healer comp I do think we'll start seeing PFs looking to do it

[Turtledeluxe]

the path of least resistance is just reading a guide and following it

if someone does write up a guide for a no-healer or solo-healer comp I do think we'll start seeing PFs looking to do it

Doubly so if it's the actual meta i.e. if it's the fastest way to end the the encounter.

Which, to be clear, gaming anyway, is typically what meta refers to...the most efficient way to execute the goal. So a meta that is more accessible can still be meta, it would just be suboptimal, is what I am saying.

[Zolvolt]

Didn't yoshi p say that savage was under tuned this time around and apologized for it?

[Zolvolt]

Doubly so if it's the actual meta i.e. if it's the fastest way to end the the encounter.

Which, to be clear, gaming anyway, is typically what meta refers to...the most efficient way to execute the goal. So a meta that is more accessible can still be meta, it would just be suboptimal, is what I am saying.

We won't see no-healer runs ne the norm ever again thanks to FFlogs. FFLogs proved in HW it determined what the meta is and ever since they separated normal comp from abnormal comps we stopped seeing the mass amount of no healer runs or 1 healer runs. A few groups do it for fun now but thats all.