Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[Iscah]

Also the hyurification of lala noses is a crime tbh; I understand the goal is streamlining for expressions but with all the issues with those as it is and general loss of racial traits in non-hyur races it is just awful.

As a Hyur player I don't even think it's just "Hyurification"; she now has quite a different nose structure to before.

[Argantaelle]

It seems like someone in SE headquarters decided what facial features should be considered "attractive," so they just copied and pasted them across all faces. (Preserving racial individuality? Players surely don't want this!) This person is a big fan of straight noses*, almond-shaped eyes, huge upper eyelid shadows, one particular mouth shape, plump lips with built-in lipstic... and philtrums. Philtrums everywhere. To preserve the "attractive" shape of the philtrum, this person ordered to adjust all mouths to show the philtrum in all its glory. Also, philtrums (as the most important facial feature) should be highlighted in every environment.

And SE designers obeyed without questions.

*Even tiny Lalafell noses have been straightened, and that probably baffles me the most.

[MistressMoonseeker]

I originally made the post quoted below after the Updated Benchmark was released. In the hope that the post will be seen and added to the changes if hasn't already, I am adding it here along with things I have noticed since then.

My original character doesn't exist and I had effectively lost hope of hearing any positive news that my OC, who I have written for, gposed, and spent thousands of hours of gameplay and story with, would return. I'm praying that the recent community manager post is a sign of hope and that she might exist again.

Having had a fair bit of time to mourn and look at my character's unrecognizable face I have noticed the following changes in the Dawntrail version of Face 2:

• The eyebrows are incredibly angular (as the post below shows).
• The sclera is smaller.
• The nostrils are larger.
• The upper lip is less full.
• The jaw is more angular, lacking the soft dip before the chin it had before.
• The white Keeper markings are less visible/bright.
• The cheeks are less round and blush has been added.
• The chin is flatter.

Please note, the quoted section below is from this post and the images contained within are as detailed:

Updated Benchmark = 7.0
Current Engine = 6.58
Original Benchmark = First Dawntrail Benchmark

I personally didn't have a problem with the first rendition...the teeth for Keepers, that bothered a lot of folks, but didn't bother me. The new version is also fine. I am genuinely confused over this change though.
Was this intentional or overlooked?

Keepers of the Moon
Eyebrow options for Face 2 were altered between the 1st Benchmark and Updated Benchmark.
All versions of Face 2 now look angry/determined/focused/etc. A "soft" look no longer exists.

#2 Eyebrows on Face 2 were the only "soft" look and now they are also severe looking like 1, 3, & 5, albeit the lesser version.

When directly compared it looks like the severity and length of the eyebrow was changed with the first Benchmark, but it wasn't as noticeable at the time because the darkened lines were removed.
It still managed to look somewhat close to the current engine.
But with those dark lines readded in the update it has made #2 Eyebrows severe just like the others.

My even-tempered bookworm SGE looks so angry.


#4 had the same thing happen to it.
It was more severe than #2, soft but more lifted/arched, but was still softer than 1, 3, and 5.
There is barely any notable difference between 2 & 4 in the updated benchmark.

[Cubsbane]

Apologies if it's been brought up, I've only skimmed the thread, but there really seems to be an anti-lip tubercle (I think that's the right anatomy?) thing going on with the update. Most pronounced tubercles have been straightened out or otherwise made smaller. I think Thancred is the most high-profile example of this.

Anyway, I'm a face 2 female Au ra, so... That probably speaks for itself. I like how she looks now, don't get me wrong, but she lost a bit of personality with the alteration of her lips.

I wish I knew why they didn't try to recreate what we already had more faithfully.

[Iscah]

It seems like someone in SE headquarters decided what facial features should be considered "attractive," so they just copied and pasted them across all faces.

I suspect it has more to do with their "one basic face model that can stretch and squash to the proportions of any of the races" technology that they were so proudly showing off at one of the Fan Fests, instead of unique models for every face, which might mean that sameification is the inevitable (and disappointing) outcome or might just mean it needs more careful work to bend each part of the basic face into the specific shapes.

[nattherat]

The "hyurification" is certainly real. I can understand why there might be confusion from players who don't look at the meshes, but I did because I wanted to verify what I was seeing in game. Just to clear up confusion but also to point out these fundamental issues further:


Here's a very direct comparison, orthographic view. I won't comment on the ears or eyes here because the shape keys haven't been set the same on both of them. It's very clear to see that the middle of a Lalafell face is now a pinched/squished in hyur face, same with the lips. I'd be willing to bet actual money this is identical across all races.


A close-up of the DT mesh, really zeroing in on that nose and lips. There's 101 other problems imho, including issues I didn't mention like my freckles being all but invisible now, but truly the biggest offending thing is this whole using a hyur mesh as a universal base. You can even see where the eye corner leading to the bridge of the nose, which would be a small area on a hyur, is really stretched on a lalafell. That hyur mesh is struggling on other species. In general the whole T-zone, nose, and mouth are suffering severely. The original mesh, whilst lower poly, was also significantly tidier and better shaped for lalafell specifically.


In case the wireframe is too much info to visually-parse, here's a draw over highlighting exactly how the face is being pinched vs the old mesh. If somebody feels they still can't see the issues, then... I'm not sure what to say. The mesh itself is damning proof, imho. Again, pretty sure this will be the same across other races too.

This is why my lalafellin nose no longer exists and has been completely replaced with a misshapen hyur nose. It's as though a simple inflate/deflate tool has been used on them in the 3D software without much consideration, which leads to... kind of amateur excessive polys around those areas. You can't one-size-fits-all different species. Again, sorry, I'm really trying to remain reasonable and calm, I just genuinely feel this was unacceptable to release.

I hope this shows that this isn't an actual faithful upscale of Lalafellin head. The loops around the lips and the nose are entirely different, because they were built for hyurs, not for lalafell.

[GreenLeafy]

I need to check all of my characters for the brow not lining up with the brow ridge. I was saying the other day that I'd just realised it was happening on my face-4 male Miqo'te but maybe it's widespread. There was definitely someone a few pages back who also had the eye socket shadow creeping above the eyebrow line, and IIRC that was a female Highlander.

Don't have screenshots on hand rn but this issue is very much a problem. I noticed it on my Face 1 miqo aswell. Depending on if I have a hat on or off my fringe also goes infront or behind the facewear but I can't tell if that's the glasses moving or my fringe lol. Friend has facewear also sit funky on his female miqo.

[GreenLeafy]

The "hyurification" is certainly real.

This approach would fall in line with that I've seen for the diffuse maps for everyone's eyes aswell. I don't have the diffuse maps from pre-DT but every single one in DT is literally the same one for everyone with just minor tweaks of value (or pupil shape for miqo/lalas). Which is what most likely led to something like au'ras losing their smaller pupil because they now have an identical diffuse map with the rest. Whoever was working on doing the update for characters was really trying to cut as many corners as possible , which in of itself isn't a terrible thing to do, but it was just executed so poorly and had literally no consideration for the finer details that made the racial differences what they really are.

[nattherat]

This approach would fall in line with that I've seen for the diffuse maps for everyone's eyes aswell. I don't have the diffuse maps from pre-DT but every single one in DT is literally the same one for everyone with just minor tweaks of value (or pupil shape for miqo/lalas). Which is what most likely led to something like au'ras losing their smaller pupil because they now have an identical diffuse map with the rest. Whoever was working on doing the update for characters was really trying to cut as many corners as possible , which in of itself isn't a terrible thing to do, but it was just executed so poorly and had literally no consideration for the finer details that made the racial differences what they really are.

Absolutely, I'm really glad for the players who have explained the technical side of things in this thread despite there sometimes being pushback/claims that these are imagined/subjective, that's what inspired me to go look at the meshes and textures and see for myself too. I wanted to be certain of the criticisms I had and why they were happening.

I understand efficiency in the workplace is important, and I understand why on paper this would have seemed like an awesome idea. Having one universal base mesh to cut your work down to a fraction? Sounds great! But universal only works if everything using that universal mesh is fundamentally the same in the first place. Actually making a Lalafell, Hrothgar, and Roegadyn all use a Hyur mesh is beyond absurd. It's no longer optimised if it causes so many issues that they now have to do their second major revision to the graphics - and potentially third+, depending on the results of the late August revision. That's now significantly less efficient than if they'd made a bespoke mesh per race to start with. Literally doing a lazy subdivide on the original lalafell mesh, whilst would need cleaning up, would have produced better visual results that more players would have been happy with because it would have structurally remained lalafell. (It also would have saved them time. I can't imagine what a pain it must be to first try and mash a hyur face into something as extreme as a lalafell, and then try and force the shape keys into the same as old shape keys. This is why everyone's noticing their mouths/noses/eyebrows/cheeks/etc are different. Basically this has made way more work for the dev team than just doing bespoke meshes to start with.)

[Argantaelle]

I'd be willing to bet actual money this is identical across all races.

Your post pretty much explains everything, thank you.

P.S. I'm kind of curious about the fourth male Au Ra face. So far, it has changed very little (fundamentally, I'm not talking about lighting or overall increased smoothness). It even retained the original, non-standard mouth shape. I have a feeling they kind of forgot about it, and maybe it still has the same face structure as before DT.

P.S.S. ...and then I suddenly realised that I would never get my character back. If they hyurificated everything, it might take too much work to adjust the shapes according to the original. Also, the inevitable adjustments defile the very idea of standardisation, because in the end, the meshes might as well be unique for each race.

The future seems to be rather grim.