M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Venks]

Until "healerless" becomes the meta for content like this, which doesn't seem likely, it probably won't be addressed by the dev team.

I think this is right on. As is 99% of Savage parties will always be bringing 2 healers and they will be needed for the clear.

If current Savage was changed to require more healing it would likely be the case that less than 1% of parties would then start to bring 1 healer, while 99% of parties would still be bringing two healers. The problem now being that far less people in the 99% group would be able to get clears because of less margin for error.

[Chiru_Kai]

I'd love to see them try M3S without healers.

[Connor]

I think this is right on. As is 99% of Savage parties will always be bringing 2 healers and they will be needed for the clear.

If current Savage was changed to require more healing it would likely be the case that less than 1% of parties would then start to bring 1 healer, while 99% of parties would still be bringing two healers. The problem now being that far less people in the 99% group would be able to get clears because of less margin for error.

Maybe I’m missing something but should we really be worrying about the margin of error for players in what’s meant to be literally the most difficult content in the game right now?

[Chiru_Kai]

Maybe I’m missing something but should we really be worrying about the margin of error for players in what’s meant to be literally the most difficult content in the game right now?

Depends on how elitist you want this content to be.

The amount of players that *want* to do savage are already a relatively small percentage of players that actually play the game. Most of my friends just prefer doing roulettes, levelling jobs, treasure maps, and collecting glam pieces or something like that.
Making savage content harder just means it will attract less people to engage with that content, because they'll just see it like how people tend to see ultimates: it's cool, but not for them and they're not ever even going to try it out. Plenty of people *already* view Savage this way, and making it tougher only means more people will see it that way.
This then also results in less justification to spend developer time on a part of the game that not many people have interest in, therefore it does not drive enough subscriptions, and does not warrant the cost of development.

Considering a large portion of their post-MSQ patches revolve around savages and savage gear catch-up mechanics, I think the devs do not want to make it unapproachable to do savage fights for the common player. They want to make it hard, and require quite a bit of effort to complete it, but not expect perfectionism and make it overly frustrating. That is reserved for ultimates. And yes, I think clearing TOP without healers is a bad thing and they can and should absolutely be okay with going back to older ultimates and make sure that people can't cheese them.

For me, I think these fights are very much on par with how difficult the first tier of pandemonium is. I started learning to raid that tier, and I'm pretty sure if I started learning how to raid this tier, I would have a very similar experience. And I feel the first tier is MEANT to be 'easy' like that. So that people who just joined for the new expansion can try out savage and accomplish it. It's so that players can try out new jobs, new roles, and get a positive experience that doesn't scare them away from savage or make them overly frustrated.

[Ramiee]

I feel like this is just a false assumption. Are you saying just because you're good at something, you won't be using something that make it easier for you?

When I do PF, sometime I make macro to call out stuff like (in/out) or (partner/spread) if I keep seeing people make mistake, so obviously I'm capable of tracking them.

But that doesn't mean I feel much more comfortable whenever I play with static and have a dedicated caller.

Healers should not be optional in current content in a trinity game. That's it, if they are the trinity is broken they should fix this or do away with the trinity.
I don't care what you think nor your opinion on skill level this is objectively inbalance or false advertising.

[Sivante]

Healers should not be optional in current content in a trinity game. That's it, if they are the trinity is broken they should fix this or do away with the trinity.
I don't care what you think nor your opinion on skill level this is objectively inbalance or false advertising.

Ramiee is coming off a bit aggressive, but I agree with them. The adage in the community is 'If side content isn't your thing, don't do it.' But the core role classes are not meant to be, should not be, and currently are becoming, 'side content.' Regardless of skill level, approach, or specification this is not a state of affairs that aligns with the MMO genre. It is certainly not something that aligns with CS3's long-term push of every class being necessary, every class having something they bring to the table, etc.

If you don't have a problem with this situation, then ask yourself if you will have a problem if only one particular class setup for things is a problem: that's how meta's work. When your job is relegated to the 'unnecessary side content for casuals' pile I don't think you would be out of place to be upset about it.

[Connor]

For me, I think these fights are very much on par with how difficult the first tier of pandemonium is. I started learning to raid that tier, and I'm pretty sure if I started learning how to raid this tier, I would have a very similar experience. And I feel the first tier is MEANT to be 'easy' like that. So that people who just joined for the new expansion can try out savage and accomplish it. It's so that players can try out new jobs, new roles, and get a positive experience that doesn't scare them away from savage or make them overly frustrated.

From what I remember hasn't this always been the case too? Last time they did an actual ‘gate keep’ raid was the OG Faust I think? Last time I raided in any real capacity was Coils (like, many weeks after release lol), so I’m fairly neutral on what way it swings overall.

And I mean, I don’t think making Savage ‘accessible’ or ‘forgiving’ is inherently bad either. As you mention there we have ultimates now to fill the ‘unforgiving super punishing ultra raid’ niche.

Still, the fact things like this are possible says to me they’ve maybe went a little too far into easing things up a little. Though, ultimately it’s a compound of the job designs, tanks/healer designs, etc. I think the devs have become a little ‘too scared’ of making things ‘a bit more challenging’ in certain areas lol

[AdmiralAngeldust]

A bunch of giga nerds playing the game abnormally isn't anything to really care about beyond, "wow it's cool they could accomplish this".

One of the many reasons WoW started swirling the toilet was because of the developers balancing the game around the top 1% of players like this. The reality is most people will use/need/want healers for their savage clears. The doomposting about MUH HEALER ROLE is embarrassing and if you actually played the game you'd know its all bullshit. Every single savage group in the party finder I'm looking at RIGHT NOW has 2 slots open for healers.

Lets not get Square to start balancing around the 0.1% of players trying to squeeze out the most optimal combination of jobs/gear/materia/etc. because that is a dark road that will kill the game for the average player

[Rithy255]

I don't think we need a strict trinity 2/2/4 system where jobs can only do one set thing based on their role type, a extreme example would be that healers/tanks do 10% of a dps damage, healers only heal, tanks only mitigate I think this would be a very boring and bland system.

But I think if you can have "funny" no healer runs I do believe the reverse of no tank runs should be achievable (no dps is also a thing that happens depending on the checks), giving healers strong single target mits, more damage buttons that comes with more damage (equal to tank), even some sort of way to increase aggro by giving someone a temp increase of something I'd see as fair. (could be used for trolling lol, similar to rescue)

I personally dislike a riggid 2/2/4 system, as for me it heavily limits what a role can do based off class type. I personally enjoy support and even limited healing on tanks.

[Raven2014]

Healers should not be optional in current content in a trinity game. That's it, if they are the trinity is broken they should fix this or do away with the trinity.
I don't care what you think nor your opinion on skill level this is objectively inbalance or false advertising.

And ... the heck any of this have with what I said? If you go back a few page my stand is that healer role is indeed diminished by design. But in the post I simply point out the person I quoted are making irrelevant connection and false assumption.

It's fine if you want to rant, but you don't need to randomly quote people to attach your rant to, especially when you're getting aggressive about it. You're obviously not caring what I think, 'cause you didn't even read what you quote.