SE's treatment of MCH is a joke

[Stigs]

I don't think the ranged tax was ever due to forced melee downtime. The ranged tax comes from ranged classes not having to jump through any hoops to keep uptime. A part of why HW MCH could get away with having bonkers damage; managing castbars restricted movement.

People have very different perceptions of balance. The fact that a lot of people ITT are upset over a 5-10% difference in dps is kind of disheartening when the game is already suffering so much from homogenization.

You could give ranged a unique utility not related to damage, but then you'll have people (like RDM and SMN players) who say: "it's not fair that our jobs become useless after prog is over." or "bringing a phys ranged being mandatory only because of (buff) is bad design. Let us bring the jobs we want to."

You could flatten out the damage between all of the jobs, but then you'll have people saying: "Why does my harder job do as much damage as their easier one? If there's no reward for extra effort then there's no point in not just playing the easiest job."

Then you could just make all the jobs the as close in difficulty as possible: congratulations, your job roster has now all been reduced to what order you press arbitrary and generic "does x potency" GCD's and CD's, destroying any modicum of thought left in the game.

If a job is viable enough to kill fights without severely impacting the group, it should be fine. Our priority now should just be finding ways we can make the jobs unique while keeping them viable.

Comparing oneself to other classes is a strange thing to do, anyway. If you want to see a (semi) accurate representation of skill it makes way more sense to compare yourself to other players playing the same job.

[Hanzz96]

I don't think the ranged tax was ever due to forced melee downtime. The ranged tax comes from ranged classes not having to jump through any hoops to keep uptime. A part of why HW MCH could get away with having bonkers damage; managing castbars restricted movement.

People have very different perceptions of balance. The fact that a lot of people ITT are upset over a 5-10% difference in dps is kind of disheartening when the game is already suffering so much from homogenization.

You could give ranged a unique utility not related to damage, but then you'll have people (like RDM and SMN players) who say: "it's not fair that our jobs become useless after prog is over." or "bringing a phys ranged being mandatory only because of (buff) is bad design. Let us bring the jobs we want to."

You could flatten out the damage between all of the jobs, but then you'll have people saying: "Why does my harder job do as much damage as their easier one? If there's no reward for extra effort then there's no point in not just playing the easiest job."

Then you could just make all the jobs the as close in difficulty as possible: congratulations, your job roster has now all been reduced to what order you press arbitrary and generic "does x potency" GCD's and CD's, destroying any modicum of thought left in the game.

If a job is viable enough to kill fights without severely impacting the group, it should be fine. Our priority now should just be finding ways we can make the jobs unique while keeping them viable.

Comparing oneself to other classes is a strange thing to do, anyway. If you want to see a (semi) accurate representation of skill it makes way more sense to compare yourself to other players playing the same job.

The thing is melee don't have to fight for uptime with all their tools either. And the thing is phys ranged is so outclassed that it's debatable of bringing them is worth or not

[Daralii]

The thing is melee don't have to fight for uptime with all their tools either. And the thing is phys ranged is so outclassed that it's debatable of bringing them is worth or not

The "range and mobility tax" definitely started feeling outdated when they started making most bosses have no positionals and/or have hitboxes half the size of their arena. When I was watching M4S prog I don't think the melees had to spend more than 5 GCDs out of melee range for the entire fight.

[Lck0ut]

I don't think the ranged tax was ever due to forced melee downtime. The ranged tax comes from ranged classes not having to jump through any hoops to keep uptime. A part of why HW MCH could get away with having bonkers damage; managing castbars restricted movement.

People have very different perceptions of balance. The fact that a lot of people ITT are upset over a 5-10% difference in dps is kind of disheartening when the game is already suffering so much from homogenization.

You could give ranged a unique utility not related to damage, but then you'll have people (like RDM and SMN players) who say: "it's not fair that our jobs become useless after prog is over." or "bringing a phys ranged being mandatory only because of (buff) is bad design. Let us bring the jobs we want to."

You could flatten out the damage between all of the jobs, but then you'll have people saying: "Why does my harder job do as much damage as their easier one? If there's no reward for extra effort then there's no point in not just playing the easiest job."

Then you could just make all the jobs the as close in difficulty as possible: congratulations, your job roster has now all been reduced to what order you press arbitrary and generic "does x potency" GCD's and CD's, destroying any modicum of thought left in the game.

If a job is viable enough to kill fights without severely impacting the group, it should be fine. Our priority now should just be finding ways we can make the jobs unique while keeping them viable.

Comparing oneself to other classes is a strange thing to do, anyway. If you want to see a (semi) accurate representation of skill it makes way more sense to compare yourself to other players playing the same job.

Simple solution. Buff MCH's damage, but;

1.) reintroduce castbars for certain abilities (2s casts on tools, 1.5s casts on GCD Combo, for example),

2.) introduce a branching GCD combo similar to SAM or DRG involving juggling a self damage buff and/or a single-target DoT,

3.) Buff Dismantle to 15% mitigation and/or 15s duration, Dismantle is a lot worse utility-wise than well-planned Paeon, Improv, or Curing Waltz usages.

[Hanzz96]

Simple solution. Buff MCH's damage, but;

1.) reintroduce castbars for certain abilities (2s casts on tools, 1.5s casts on GCD Combo, for example),

2.) introduce a branching GCD combo similar to SAM or DRG involving juggling a self damage buff and/or a single-target DoT,

3.) Buff Dismantle to 15% mitigation and/or 15s duration, Dismantle is a lot worse utility-wise than well-planned Paeon, Improv, or Curing Waltz usages.

I think just casts on tools would be fine tbh

[Xuke]

returning rend mind and just making it 5% all damage instead of just magic would probably be the simplest solution
basically just MCH trick attack

We had this in Heavensward and Stormblood. It was Hypercharge and it turned the rook turret autos into Trick Attack. Not sure if it was 5% though.

[Raven2014]

The "range and mobility tax" definitely started feeling outdated when they started making most bosses have no positionals and/or have hitboxes half the size of their arena. When I was watching M4S prog I don't think the melees had to spend more than 5 GCDs out of melee range for the entire fight.

Because that's not the only thing the tax meant? Even if in fights where melee can keep 100% uptime, it tend to be more difficult to do so comparing to range. Take example of M2S for examples, you can't pretend it's a lot easier for range to dodge the hearts comparing to melee.

[RagiForzando]

I'm reposting this from my post in a different thread, I feel like it's very relevant here;

I've seen a lot of the same sentiment that ranged should be taxed, and I agree that should be a factor; But when it yet AGAIN is at the point that we, as in a group looking for faster kills, are talking about ditching the ENTIRE role beyond week 1 of progression in savage because the 1% bonus is worse than having a different role, there is a problem.

This discussion has been around for a while in EW too. It already felt VERY bad to essentially be a 1% statstick and just be there to help that bonus, and now it's at the point where even that is in question. MCH is objectively at the worst end of the stick and has been for MOST of the patches over the last 2 expansions. It is obvious something needs to change and these miniscule buffs that keep happening show that SE is deathly afraid of MCH ever being even slightly too strong.

I think the best course of action is to give MCH a raid buff for this expansion as a band-aid fix, and then go for a full rework of the ENTIRE role in 8.0. Sweeping changes won't happen this expansion but things need to change. It's honestly pathetic to see that nothing has changed over the course of 2 expansions and this exact problem keeps rearing its ugly head over and over. The role needs either unique utility, and no 10% mit isnt unique, or the damage to hold itself afloat without the 1%.

SE has absolutely failed MCH for 2 expansions in a row already, please just give up on it and rework the entire role in 8.0, give it a band-aid fix till then. It's beyond sad how the exact same issue repeats itself again and again for the exact same job in the exact same way. Yes it all still works but, to put it simply, it feels like dogshit to be in this state for what likely will be 3 expansions in a row.

[Hanzz96]

I'm reposting this from my post in a different thread, I feel like it's very relevant here;

I've seen a lot of the same sentiment that ranged should be taxed, and I agree that should be a factor; But when it yet AGAIN is at the point that we, as in a group looking for faster kills, are talking about ditching the ENTIRE role beyond week 1 of progression in savage because the 1% bonus is worse than having a different role, there is a problem.

This discussion has been around for a while in EW too. It already felt VERY bad to essentially be a 1% statstick and just be there to help that bonus, and now it's at the point where even that is in question. MCH is objectively at the worst end of the stick and has been for MOST of the patches over the last 2 expansions. It is obvious something needs to change and these miniscule buffs that keep happening show that SE is deathly afraid of MCH ever being even slightly too strong.

I think the best course of action is to give MCH a raid buff for this expansion as a band-aid fix, and then go for a full rework of the ENTIRE role in 8.0. Sweeping changes won't happen this expansion but things need to change. It's honestly pathetic to see that nothing has changed over the course of 2 expansions and this exact problem keeps rearing its ugly head over and over. The role needs either unique utility, and no 10% mit isnt unique, or the damage to hold itself afloat without the 1%.

SE has absolutely failed MCH for 2 expansions in a row already, please just give up on it and rework the entire role in 8.0, give it a band-aid fix till then. It's beyond sad how the exact same issue repeats itself again and again for the exact same job in the exact same way. Yes it all still works but, to put it simply, it feels like dogshit to be in this state for what likely will be 3 expansions in a row.

This echos my thoughts and feelings perfectly

[Valence]

I've always been a proponent of bringing back things that should never have been deleted:

- Ammo and procs: I do believe were part of the core rphys identity and introduced a lot of randomness and chaos into the rotation, enough for it to require more upkeep and constant agency than most deterministic rotations.
- Raid buffs (old turret hypercharge), which are also core to rphys identity and made MCH able to compete with BRD on what the role was supposed to do. Current MCH doesnt fit well within its own role, and even runs contradictory to what is actually written on the job guide's website role descrption...

Is that DPS difference the limit between a wipe and a clear? I mean, I've had no issues playing MCH even if DNC or BRD outclass me in damage. Guess it's min ilvl issue for 1st week?

The damage outclass isn't that huge so no. The cDPS gap isn't really big between all rphys, but obviously bringing a BRD will give you a slight edge over DNC, and a slightly bigger edge over MCH right now.

And you'd probably start gaining even more damage by replacing your rphys with a second high damage job and I do feel that the only saving grace against this is the currently weak state of BLM, else you could see double caster double melee comps probably overcoming the 1% party bonus, which is the true, more immediate problem in my eyes. Some ranged are just allowed to compete with melees, while the rest are taxed either for raising, or for "mobility".

Just because "every job can clear" doesn't mean it's the best choice, SE. Machinist can clear it, but it doesn't scale with jobs, it scales with gear, and poorly at that compared to bard and dancer, who scale with gear plus the gear the party gets.

A selfish job will scale with raid buffs from others. This is a party game, not an individual job game in a vacuum. The problem of MCH isn't that it doesn't scale with raid buffs, it's that it doesn't scale as much as other selfish jobs. When you buff massively the top jobs as a BRD or DNC, you're buffing jobs that deal 10% more damage than a MCH. When you're being buffed by support jobs as a MCH, you're being buffed on an output that is 10% lower.

MCH is deceptively comparable to other selfish DPS, but not quite. If one wants to shine as a selfish dps, they need to top the charts, which MCH does not do. This can be bandaid fixed like SE enjoys doing over patches because it keeps falling behind as things progress, but it's not very... elegant nor satisfying.

Edit: it's possible we were saying the same thing though, sometimes hard to make from an internet forum medium.