What happened to the 8 years of data and market analysis?

[Abriael]

Agreed.

PS: Its nice to read something from you written from a more neutral perspective.

I always write from a neutral perspective, and most of the time from related experience.

That doesn't mean that you're going to like it.

[Heartfire]

This seems so true, especially because alot of the questions in those polls were worded in such a way that you already had an idea that they were wanting to do a certain thing, but were wanting confirmation from the players. No matter the responses to those polls I think that SE will do what they think is best.

It may even be that they consider the opinions of current players least, as these are the people most likely to already be at least somewhat satisfied with the game because they are still playing.

This.

My biggest complaint about the player-polls, (while important), are set up in such a way that I feel like SE already knows the answer to their question.

Example: I remember in the last one, there was a question regarding if I had "felt the effects of the fatigue system." There was only Yes, and No. I was looking for the option that said, "Yes, now please take it the $%^& out of the game!"

That said, I feel like the question was particularly worded so that we couldn't voice certain obvious opinions. Which means that SE is aware of the general opinion from the player base. Which then means that they're probably going to do whatever the hell they want to do, regardless of how we feel about it. Don't get me wrong, I don't think SE should listen to every little whiny kid who wants a pretty version of WoW. But I also think that if SE is going to post polls like this, then they shouldn't try to curb the question like that.

Obviously, this is the only example that comes to mind at the moment. But there were a few others where I felt that answering the question didn't really reflect my opinion on the matter. And that's what is frustrating.

[Abriael]

This.

My biggest complaint about the player-polls, (while important), are set up in such a way that I feel like SE already knows the answer to their question.

Game developement isn't and should never be a democratic process. It's good to ask for input and feedback, but that input and feedback needs to be filtered through the vision and competence of a professional development team.
Otherwise:
1: every game would end up being the same, since statistically the majority always wants the same things.
2: there would be absolutely no evolution in the market, as the status quo always tends to be more popular in polls than innovative solutions (especially in consolidated markets, or even more in fossilized markets like this one)
3: games would simply be a mess completely lacking direction, since most gamers lack the bird-eye view to actually consider systems in relation to each other, and will respond each question on different systems as an airtight compartment.

[Winterclaw]

First off, FFXIV was released in 2001. Back in those days, mmorpgs were a lot more hardcore. Think of the hundreds of thousands of people who quit FFXI shortly after it came out (most of which were fans of modern Final Fantasy titles that required hardly any skill or grinding to play at all). A large portion of this crowd flocked to WoW as well, which introduced a much more noob-friendly environment. You're saying FFXI is meant for casual gamers? That's bs. No other mmorpg today requires 4 straight uninterrupted hours to complete a single mission.

I'm saying that there were backward steps like lack of an AH from FF11 (which came out in 2001) and the current game. I can't say I like the crafting system either. FF11 certainly wasn't a gem (just look at the relatively low numbers) and had problems of its own. Still compared to games like GW and WoW, both of which sold pretty well, this game has learned nothing and certainly hasn't advanced anything or is even an equal in some respects.

Still, you have to admit it's pretty bad when you have to goto a website like zam to figure out how to get the patcher to patch at a decent speed because SE wrote theirs weird. I'd hardly call that a step forward either.

Character customization? Despite being released a decade after the first game, you still don't really get that many options. Not as much as AoC, (now) EVE, CoH, or DCUO. That's something simple, graphics are SE's strong suit, and they didn't really advance things all that much. Want to color your armor? Well you can, only when it is made, and only using a handful of specific colors. That's a step backwards for the genre. In GW, you buy 1-4 dyes, click on the object you want to dye, and mix the dyes in the preview window. The new dye system in that game has only been out a few years now.

No AA? I'm not sure I'd call that a step forward. I can't even set the first skill in my slot to automatically queue every few seconds (so it doesn't burn my stamina on its own).

The crafting maxigrind... err minigame. All that clicking is definitely a step backwards if you ask me.

The interface at release? If you don't call that a step backwards, you're tripping. They released the game for the PC first and didn't even think to optimize it for a PC gamer and then have an PS3 one for those players.

Having to manually type in someone's name every freaking time when you want to whisper him? Step backwards.

Inability to set communication to /shout and make it stay there because you aren't sure if anyone is around or willing to talk to you? Step backwards.

Having to manually set which area I'm going to harvest at and then play a guessing game? Step backwards... too time consuming and you can get bored with the minigame and extra clicks real quick.

Forcing minigames on players but not offer enough progress/rewards? A step backwards as it gets monotonous.

Calling a chocobo a horsebird? HOW IN THE BLOODY WORLD DO THE PEOPLE AT SE WHO ARE MAKING AN FF GAME NOT KNOW THE NAME OF A CHOCOBO! IT'S BEEN A FRANCHISE STAPLE SINCE FOREVER! A step backwards times 10.

So umm, yeah, there are steps backwards.



Kukurumei, nice post.

[Abriael]

Actually I would say that crafting/gathering minigames are a definite step FORWARD from the "press one button and pray it works" system, which is instead antiquated and surpassed.

Character customization options are pretty much in line with today's standards as number of combinations and single options, and actually way above average for colors.

No AA being a step backwards is entirely debatable and subjective.

And you can set the chat to shout making it stay there.

FFXIV did take some step backwards in a few aspects of gameplay, but it did also take some definite steps forward.

[gifthorse]

Actually I would say that crafting/gathering minigames are a definite step FORWARD from the "press one button and pray it works" system, which is instead antiquated and surpassed.

I agree. Vanguard had a very similar crafting system (right down to the local leves), and I am glad that FFXIV emulated their system and not the RNG crafting system of every other game. I think it's funny to say FFXIV wasn't paying attention to the genre when it's kind of suspicious that FFXIV's crafting system is basically the same as Vanguards (which is a pretty obscure game).

Character customization options are pretty much in line with today's standards as number of combinations and single options, and actually way above average for colors.

Looking at Aion, EVE Online and TERA, I would have to disagree. But I think the options for gear are quite broad (this ties into the crafting system) and has potential for even more diversity.

No AA being a step backwards is entirely debatable and subjective.

Especially considering most next generation games don't have AA.

FFXIV did take some step backwards in a few aspects of gameplay, but it did also take some definite steps forward.

I think SE needs some recognition for the things it did right. It's kind of frustrating to see the many achievements they made lumped together with their failings, so much so that SE has become self-conscious and seem to be changing all their good features for the worse.

[gifthorse]

I'm saying that there were backward steps like lack of an AH from FF11 (which came out in 2001) and the current game. I can't say I like the crafting system either. FF11 certainly wasn't a gem (just look at the relatively low numbers) and had problems of its own. Still compared to games like GW and WoW, both of which sold pretty well, this game has learned nothing and certainly hasn't advanced anything or is even an equal in some respects.

Still, you have to admit it's pretty bad when you have to goto a website like zam to figure out how to get the patcher to patch at a decent speed because SE wrote theirs weird. I'd hardly call that a step forward either.

Character customization? Despite being released a decade after the first game, you still don't really get that many options. Not as much as AoC, (now) EVE, CoH, or DCUO. That's something simple, graphics are SE's strong suit, and they didn't really advance things all that much. Want to color your armor? Well you can, only when it is made, and only using a handful of specific colors. That's a step backwards for the genre. In GW, you buy 1-4 dyes, click on the object you want to dye, and mix the dyes in the preview window. The new dye system in that game has only been out a few years now.

No AA? I'm not sure I'd call that a step forward. I can't even set the first skill in my slot to automatically queue every few seconds (so it doesn't burn my stamina on its own).

The crafting maxigrind... err minigame. All that clicking is definitely a step backwards if you ask me.

The interface at release? If you don't call that a step backwards, you're tripping. They released the game for the PC first and didn't even think to optimize it for a PC gamer and then have an PS3 one for those players.

Having to manually type in someone's name every freaking time when you want to whisper him? Step backwards.

Inability to set communication to /shout and make it stay there because you aren't sure if anyone is around or willing to talk to you? Step backwards.

Having to manually set which area I'm going to harvest at and then play a guessing game? Step backwards... too time consuming and you can get bored with the minigame and extra clicks real quick.

Forcing minigames on players but not offer enough progress/rewards? A step backwards as it gets monotonous.

Calling a chocobo a horsebird? HOW IN THE BLOODY WORLD DO THE PEOPLE AT SE WHO ARE MAKING AN FF GAME NOT KNOW THE NAME OF A CHOCOBO! IT'S BEEN A FRANCHISE STAPLE SINCE FOREVER! A step backwards times 10.

So umm, yeah, there are steps backwards.

Kukurumei, nice post.

Wow, I wrote an entire point-by-point response to your post and then pressed 'backspace' on accident and it took me back one page and I ended up losing everything i wrote.

Anyways, I guess my point was something like: Besides some features such as the UI and character customisation, overall I don't think FFXIV took a step backwards, it just took too many steps in opposing directions.

[Evovenom]

I'm saying that there were backward steps like lack of an AH from FF11 (which came out in 2001) and the current game. I can't say I like the crafting system either. FF11 certainly wasn't a gem (just look at the relatively low numbers) and had problems of its own. Still compared to games like GW and WoW, both of which sold pretty well, this game has learned nothing and certainly hasn't advanced anything or is even an equal in some respects.

Still, you have to admit it's pretty bad when you have to goto a website like zam to figure out how to get the patcher to patch at a decent speed because SE wrote theirs weird. I'd hardly call that a step forward either.

Character customization? Despite being released a decade after the first game, you still don't really get that many options. Not as much as AoC, (now) EVE, CoH, or DCUO. That's something simple, graphics are SE's strong suit, and they didn't really advance things all that much. Want to color your armor? Well you can, only when it is made, and only using a handful of specific colors. That's a step backwards for the genre. In GW, you buy 1-4 dyes, click on the object you want to dye, and mix the dyes in the preview window. The new dye system in that game has only been out a few years now.

No AA? I'm not sure I'd call that a step forward. I can't even set the first skill in my slot to automatically queue every few seconds (so it doesn't burn my stamina on its own).

The crafting maxigrind... err minigame. All that clicking is definitely a step backwards if you ask me.

The interface at release? If you don't call that a step backwards, you're tripping. They released the game for the PC first and didn't even think to optimize it for a PC gamer and then have an PS3 one for those players.

Having to manually type in someone's name every freaking time when you want to whisper him? Step backwards.

Inability to set communication to /shout and make it stay there because you aren't sure if anyone is around or willing to talk to you? Step backwards.

Having to manually set which area I'm going to harvest at and then play a guessing game? Step backwards... too time consuming and you can get bored with the minigame and extra clicks real quick.

Forcing minigames on players but not offer enough progress/rewards? A step backwards as it gets monotonous.

Calling a chocobo a horsebird? HOW IN THE BLOODY WORLD DO THE PEOPLE AT SE WHO ARE MAKING AN FF GAME NOT KNOW THE NAME OF A CHOCOBO! IT'S BEEN A FRANCHISE STAPLE SINCE FOREVER! A step backwards times 10.

So umm, yeah, there are steps backwards.



Kukurumei, nice post.

What's the point of saying all of that, people know it's true complaining about samething on what happen and why this gets old very soon.

[kukurumei]

Game developement isn't and should never be a democratic process. It's good to ask for input and feedback, but that input and feedback needs to be filtered through the vision and competence of a professional development team.
Otherwise:
1: every game would end up being the same, since statistically the majority always wants the same things.
2: there would be absolutely no evolution in the market, as the status quo always tends to be more popular in polls than innovative solutions (especially in consolidated markets, or even more in fossilized markets like this one)
3: games would simply be a mess completely lacking direction, since most gamers lack the bird-eye view to actually consider systems in relation to each other, and will respond each question on different systems as an airtight compartment.

There's a difference between direction, originality and practicality.

Should FF14 define itself, yes. It needs direction
Does FF14 need to be original? Maybe, It needs to have "style" or "hype" as they call it.
Does FF14 need to be down to earth playable. A big yes. And one it greatly forgot existed.

FF14 was full of test-tube ideas that was impractical. Whatever practicality was in it was then half baked.

Developers are allowed to make stupid ideas, but that's why there are other people around to tell that developer it's stupid. Without a voice of reason, you get FF14.

Let's take Market wards/retainers as an example:
Idea Maker: Have people walk in and have retainers sell items. Interactive/fun/original...
Voice of reason: How will people find things?
Idea Maker: umm...
Voice of reason: What happens if you have a whole server of them and fills up?
Idea Maker: errr..
Voice of reason: How do you move them around? They can't be everywhere at the same time.
Idea Maker: ahh...
Voice of reason: What about browsing and position? Isn't it kind hard to constantly manage them?
Idea Maker: Who cares, It's original, let's do it!

That was basically FF14's entire core functionality. Do first, think later.

And the one sentence counter argument to your idea. I just want to have fun, not some artistic mental ejaculation experience.

FF14 had not one shred of the voice of reason, and it paid dearly when the voice of reason told people it sucked. So yea..what did happen to 8 years of data and market analysis?

[lordvr]

And the final answer to this question is... throw it all away to go copy wow lulz