The new Viper changes are great

[Wolf_Heartnet]

I just want to come out and say that Square has done an excellent job with these Viper changes and I encourage Square to continue to make Viper more accessible. Viper has become even more fun to play for me and my friends and we look forward to more changes to make it more accessible.

Thank you Square! Keep it up!

[W00by]

My bad dude, should've looked at your logs to prove you have no idea what you're talking about instead of your lodestone

my mistake

(still don't engage with this guy, even his "polite feedback" is just ragebait calling for everything to be a homogenous mess, they like making people upset)

[Wolf_Heartnet]

My bad dude, should've looked at your logs to prove you have no idea what you're talking about instead of your lodestone

my mistake

(still don't engage with this guy, even his "polite feedback" is just ragebait calling for everything to be a homogenous mess, they like making people upset)

I don't use 3rd party addons. Those are against the terms of service.

Again, you tell others to not engage and keep using a toxic attitude towards me and you are saying that I'm rage baiting? You're only proving here that you are the rage baiter. On top of that you are doing the very thing you're telling people not to do which is engage with me. It's clear your rage baiting/trolling.

[Turtledeluxe]

You know what does defeat your argument? 1 like.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

You know what does defeat your argument? 1 like.

Roasted. XD

Good one my man

[Eudyptes]

What's with people suddenly trying to use logs as an attack lately? Someone tried to cherry pick a single fight I did poorly on with a class I never played in EW yesterday too, while ignoring that a class I actually played had orange. Which all is dumb anyway because I nor anyone in my static uploads parses which means the data they are trying to use is skewed, since it's A. a small sample size, and B. stuff from pugs which adds in a lot of uncontrollable factors. Hell, just the other day one of the EX clears I did I died on cause another dps decided to run into my spot with their lightning at the last second leaving me 3 seconds to choose to die with them or take someone else out. You really think a parse on something like that can be taken seriously? I mean half the mechanics in this game work like that too. I can't count how many times a pug has caused someone other than themselves to die.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

What's with people suddenly trying to use logs as an attack lately? Someone tried to cherry pick a single fight I did poorly on with a class I never played in EW yesterday too, while ignoring that a class I actually played had orange. Which all is dumb anyway because I nor anyone in my static uploads parses which means the data they are trying to use is skewed, since it's A. a small sample size, and B. stuff from pugs which adds in a lot of uncontrollable factors. Hell, just the other day one of the EX clears I did I died on cause another dps decided to run into my spot with their lightning at the last second leaving me 3 seconds to choose to die with them or take someone else out. You really think a parse on something like that can be taken seriously? I mean half the mechanics in this game work like that too. I can't count how many times a pug has caused someone other than themselves to die.

Agreed. Also parses don't take into account the vast differences in how people engage with a game. Me for example, I liked Viper so much especially after these new changes that I had started doing the story and unlocking/leveling Viper on my alts. So I have been replaying expansions several times and getting alot of playtime on my alts and as a result, I dont have alot of data on my main whom I got to practice Viper with first. Im currently on my 4th Viper to get to level 100 which is the same Viper that the person earlier linked and at no point have they considered that alot of my playtime has been going into leveling alts and redoing msq with them. The data is not entirely reliable but its an easy way to attempt to shut people down and silence them which is not cool because it doesn't contribute anything to any actual conversation or feedback.

[W00by]

What's with people suddenly trying to use logs as an attack lately? Someone tried to cherry pick a single fight I did poorly on with a class I never played in EW yesterday too, while ignoring that a class I actually played had orange. Which all is dumb anyway because I nor anyone in my static uploads parses which means the data they are trying to use is skewed, since it's A. a small sample size, and B. stuff from pugs which adds in a lot of uncontrollable factors. Hell, just the other day one of the EX clears I did I died on cause another dps decided to run into my spot at the lase second leaving me 3 seconds to choose to die with them or take someone else out. You really think a parse on something like that can be taken seriously? I mean half the mechanics in this game work like that too. I can't count how many times a pug has caused someone other than themselves to die.

Logs are a good metric of game understanding. It's proof that you cleared something, and understood your job while you did. Other people are logging you, regardless of whether or not you're logging yourself, and it's proof (or a lack thereof) that you know what you're talking about. If you can't demonstrate that you're clearing content where things like Job design and balance matters, people will justifiably take issue with that.

Also, saying that logs from PF don't matter is simply not true. I got a multitude of 99s in Valigarmanda and plenty of oranges in Zoraal Ja playing in party finder with sub-par comps, weird buff timings, people dying and playing poorly, and scuffed kill times. And I wasn't even logging myself for most of those. A player who understands their Job will do well in logs regardless. People shouldn't expect you to be a pink or orange log player for you to know what you're talking about, but if you haven't ever played the job being discussed in hard content, or are performing poorly (greens/greys) while doing so, then your opinion won't carry as much weight. If no logs of you exist for content you've done, then you probably didn't do it very much or someone would've logged you.

At any rate, when the conversation is about Job design, being able to prove you're good at that job is a form of credibility. Saying "the evidence doesn't exist" just means "there's no way to tell if I'm credible or not," which is still a much weaker audience than "I have a credible stance because I have numeric proof that I know what I'm talking about."

That's why people look up your logs. If you're gonna make objective comments about job design, you need to be prepared to have your objective skill analyzed.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

Logs are a good metric of game understanding. It's proof that you cleared something, and understood your job while you did. Other people are logging you, regardless of whether or not you're logging yourself, and it's proof (or a lack thereof) that you know what you're talking about. If you can't demonstrate that you're clearing content where things like Job design and balance matters, people will justifiably take issue with that.

Also, saying that logs from PF don't matter is simply not true. I got a multitude of 99s in Valigarmanda and plenty of oranges in Zoraal Ja playing in party finder with sub-par comps, weird buff timings, people dying and playing poorly, and scuffed kill times. And I wasn't even logging myself for most of those. A player who understands their Job will do well in logs regardless. People shouldn't expect you to be a pink or orange log player for you to know what you're talking about, but if you haven't ever played the job being discussed in hard content, or are performing poorly (greens/greys) while doing so, then your opinion won't carry as much weight. If no logs of you exist for content you've done, then you probably didn't do it very much or someone would've logged you.

At any rate, when the conversation is about Job design, being able to prove you're good at that job is a form of credibility. Saying "the evidence doesn't exist" just means "there's no way to tell if I'm credible or not," which is still a much weaker audience than "I have a credible stance because I have numeric proof that I know what I'm talking about."

That's why people look up your logs. If you're gonna make objective comments about job design, you need to be prepared to have your objective skill analyzed.

I believe that's called an appeal to authority which is a well known logical fallacy as it proves nothing other than you having accomplished something rather than contributing anything of value to a conversation. Theres no critical thinking or evaluation in that. It's just "listen to me cause of my status or achievement". Like when you pointed out that I go around rage baiting in other threads, despite me showing you actual proof that I dont do that, you shifted to my parses and then post this as if to say ur parses justify your logic. It doesn't. You just deflected and couldnt argue based on the actual information provided to you.

[W00by]

I believe that's called an appeal to authority which is a well known logical fallacy as it proves nothing other than you having accomplished something rather than contributing anything of value to a conversation. Theres no critical thinking or evaluation in that. It's just "listen to me cause of my status or achievement". Like when you pointed out that I go around rage baiting in other threads, despite me showing you actual proof that I dont do that, you shifted to my parses and then post this as if to say ur parses justify your logic. It doesn't. You just deflected and couldnt argue based on the actual information provided to you.

The appeal to authority fallacy is when you trust something that someone says STRICTLY because they are an authority even though it's untrue, and then use that trust to argue your point with no other evidence. I.e., if I said "new Viper is bad because X streamer said so!" would be an example of this fallacy. In contrast, myself and other experienced Vipers are providing evidence based arguments. Our own experience is part of that evidence. You clearly don't know anything about the "logical fallacies" you actually cite.

Trying to prove your own expertise based on your own experiences is called "using evidence" and "ethos," which is stuff they teach you in your high school English class.

Sorry you missed those! Must've been too busy progging story or something.