Machinist: The "Selfish" Physical Ranged that is not allowed to be Selfish

[Raikai]

For the MCH selfish approach to actually have them much higher in the metrics (talking about Rdps here), they would have to drastically increase the complexity of the job, pretty much the same relationship from BLM to SMN, or else nobody would want to take DNCs or BRDs in the phys ranged slot.

[HyperiusUltima]

For the MCH selfish approach to actually have them much higher in the metrics (talking about Rdps here), they would have to drastically increase the complexity of the job, pretty much the same relationship from BLM to SMN, or else nobody would want to take DNCs or BRDs in the phys ranged slot.

Yet in terms of complexity, BLM's only layer of complexity is Thunder DoTs, Timer upkeep, and Positioning being its mainstay with hard cast GCDs greater than your Recast. MCH doesn't have those drawbacks, but also doesn't bring anything forward to the table like the other two ranged do - and if I remember someone stating on the forums a while back, complexity =/= damage. VPR in particular takes the cake on that one.

Also in hindsight, rDPS isn't the main metric you should be looking at for MCH - we should be looking at nDPS. That is where we need to gauge MCH's problems from in regards to damage output, since the other two ranged rely on the rDPS metric to matter due to the nature of their buffs they provide. As said before, the only utility that it brings to the table is Dismantle - a 10% Damage reduction that's essentially Reprisal. How does that amount to anything considering survivability is something that we already see plenty of in current Tank/Healer kits?

[RingoNoyamano]

Mch seems in a decent spot. per tradition, it will probably be drip fed 10-20 potency boosts every major patch until 8.0.

I wish they'd let us have Automaton Queen out full time.

[Raikai]

Yet in terms of complexity, BLM's only layer of complexity is Thunder DoTs, Timer upkeep, and Positioning being its mainstay with hard cast GCDs greater than your Recast. MCH doesn't have those drawbacks, but also doesn't bring anything forward to the table like the other two ranged do - and if I remember someone stating on the forums a while back, complexity =/= damage. VPR in particular takes the cake on that one.

Also in hindsight, rDPS isn't the main metric you should be looking at for MCH - we should be looking at nDPS. That is where we need to gauge MCH's problems from in regards to damage output, since the other two ranged rely on the rDPS metric to matter due to the nature of their buffs they provide. As said before, the only utility that it brings to the table is Dismantle - a 10% Damage reduction that's essentially Reprisal. How does that amount to anything considering survivability is something that we already see plenty of in current Tank/Healer kits?

But relying on rdps to matter is DNC and BRD's premises anyway, if you compare them with ndps, MCH will go way ahead, as shown in the data we have so far. A fair comparison must be all of the damage contribution in mind.

The whole 'selfish' approach to MCH seems much more encapsulated in the rphys bubble, since their rDPS values are similar. In the end, all boils down to whether or not you trust your whole team (BRD) / dance partner (DNC) to pull their weights or not 'outsourcing' your full dps contribution (MCH).

[HyperiusUltima]

But relying on rdps to matter is DNC and BRD's premises anyway, if you compare them with ndps, MCH will go way ahead, as shown in the data we have so far. A fair comparison must be all of the damage contribution in mind.

The whole 'selfish' approach to MCH seems much more encapsulated in the rphys bubble, since their rDPS values are similar. In the end, all boils down to whether or not you trust your whole team (BRD) / dance partner (DNC) to pull their weights or not 'outsourcing' your full dps contribution (MCH).

Yet we need to look outside the rphys bubble you state, so to speak. As is, we already are running the problem of a Caster Meta and pushing Phys Ranged out. Sure, they'll be losing 15% Mit and a 1% All Stats from Ranged not existing in parties, but with how much damage Casters have from Pictomancer(which is prolly getting nerfed) or utilities from SMN now? Ranged might as well not exist anymore. MCH most of all considering it doesn't contribute as much as BRD/DNC in this regard.

Even looking at hard data, the job feels unrefined, as stated with issues regarding Queen, Flamethrower, and ACB in this thread. SE can try and argue about taxes for things, but this in fact makes the role begin to turn obsolete. What purpose does the Ranged role hold if PCT has as much utility and superior damage? Buffs? Utility? We've essentially slid back into Shadowbringers' first raid tier in this sense, considering the fact that 2x Caster had taken up residence when people were discussing the 1% Buff back during that time to keep Ranged relevant.

[CKNovel]

But relying on rdps to matter is DNC and BRD's premises anyway, if you compare them with ndps, MCH will go way ahead, as shown in the data we have so far. A fair comparison must be all of the damage contribution in mind.

The whole 'selfish' approach to MCH seems much more encapsulated in the rphys bubble, since their rDPS values are similar. In the end, all boils down to whether or not you trust your whole team (BRD) / dance partner (DNC) to pull their weights or not 'outsourcing' your full dps contribution (MCH).

NDPS is DPS without any party buffs taken in account. MCH, SAM and VPR are basically on NDPS by default, you can compare the numbers.
DNC and BRD on NDPS are at disadvantage as you take away the damage brought from their buff.

However if we compare jobs on NDPS, we can see which jobs would benefit better from raid buff.
Viper and Samurai are at the top, which is natural but MCH is 9th among all DPS... Which means a melee that isn't a pure DPS would scale better on buffs, not MCH, a pure DPS.
That's the paradox, MCH should be at the top 4 of the NDPS chart but isn't.

The phys range are in their bubble but in that bubble they are fighting for one single spot in the bigger bubble. And the winner will always be the one that fits in the bigger bubble.

[Zarkovitch]

If SE do not bring this job good dmg as selfish, then bring defense utility better than other phys range.

[Reginald_Cain]

For the MCH selfish approach to actually have them much higher in the metrics (talking about Rdps here), they would have to drastically increase the complexity of the job, pretty much the same relationship from BLM to SMN, or else nobody would want to take DNCs or BRDs in the phys ranged slot.

I think you're forgetting the fact that in stormblood when mch was strong, double phys ranged was viable. I don't think it's fair that melee and caster can double slot but not phys ranged. This is despite them having a selfish dps that could use its peers buffs to the fullest if it were allowed to function like BLM and SAM. I think the mobility value is INSANELY inflated by ego and bias in the raid and ex trial scene but i understand the detriment of ranged castless nukes in a FATE setting
. (Looking at you BLU...) . Lets not sugar coat it melees are not punished nearly as harshly for missing positionals or disengaging from bosses as stormblood and prior. You no longer bleed TP by existing. As long as its not the same job let people fill the last dps slot with whatever role they like.

[Lanvaldear]

For the MCH selfish approach to actually have them much higher in the metrics (talking about Rdps here), they would have to drastically increase the complexity of the job, pretty much the same relationship from BLM to SMN, or else nobody would want to take DNCs or BRDs in the phys ranged slot.

Did you just say that BLM is complex? BLM has 5 buttons. Its rotation is as hard as a healers. Adapting that super basic rotation to a fight mechanic is what makes it "hard".

[rewd]

Did you just say that BLM is complex? BLM has 5 buttons. Its rotation is as hard as a healers. Adapting that super basic rotation to a fight mechanic is what makes it "hard".

MCH's ST rotation has the same amount of buttons as BLM's lol (not that number of buttons correlates with complexity anyway).