Dawntrail's MSQ story is a disaster and waste of potential. [full spoilers]

[Barachim]

I don't like being compared to the Ascians, when letting Sphene do as she pleases, would literally lead to the end of life on all reflections, because the life energy she requires for her people is a finite source.

[Atmaweapon510]

I don't like being compared to the Ascians, when letting Sphene do as she pleases, would literally lead to the end of life on all reflections, because the life energy she requires for her people is a finite source.

The problem is that the narrative needed to commit to a path with them. Either they’re a valid people that can’t coexist with us so we have to strike them down (completing Wuk Lamat’s character arc) or they’re AI robot shells that only serve to give a fantasy of closure and heaven to people. The problematic implications only happen when both of these views are presented as valid.

[Barachim]

So we're just ignoring the remaining, actual living Alexandrians?

[Raven2014]

So we're just ignoring the remaining, actual living Alexandrians?

No, we're actually putting on a show for them last time I checked.

[Galvuu]

snip.

Losing Papalymo was a mistake. I don't mind his arc- it's more that he was the cynical, pessimistic voice within the group. Old Shtola was also a rational, hyper-pragmatic scion. No one is currently filling a similar role.
Now the latter became flanderized into a sophisticated "mommy" character that's constantly making sassy remarks and the former is, well, dead.
So there are rarely dissenting voices within the Scions. No one questions if the risk is worth taking for some "greater good", or if that good is really defensible or meaningful. No one goes "this is a bad idea" or "yes, what's the worst that could happen? We all die?". Even logistically, no one rarely goes "this is impossible with our current resources", it's always "we'll figure something out" or "we'll investigate it later". So everyone withing the group is basically on near-perfect agreement at all times, which is a very different dynamic from ARR and early HW.

Edit: that said, Papalymo coming with us to Tural could only go one of two ways- he's brainwashed and stripped of all character and becomes another Llama Tea "yes man"... or just imagine his sarcasm and constant annoyance at her dumbassery. I wish he were there with our WoL, to let her know exactly how dumb what she's saying and doing is.

[Raven2014]

Losing Papalymo was a mistake. I don't mind his arc- it's more that he was the cynical, pessimistic voice within the group. Old Shtola was also a rational, hyper-pragmatic scion. No one is currently filling a similar role.
Now the latter became flanderized into a sophisticated "mommy" character that's constantly making sassy remarks and the former is, well, dead.

So there are rarely dissenting voices within the Scions. No one questions if the risk is worth taking for some "greater good", or if that good is really defensible or meaningful. No one goes "this is a bad idea" or "yes, what's the worst that could happen? We all die?". Even logistically, no one rarely goes "this is impossible with our current resources", it's always "we'll figure something out" or "we'll investigate it later". So everyone withing the group is basically on near-perfect agreement at all times, which is a very different dynamic from ARR and early HW.

You're forgetting about Urianger. But this is why introducing new characters is important, even if you want to keep a trope running, you need new character to carry the old torch, Urianger can't just go behind our back and betray the group the 3rd or 4th time for the greater good, can he?

[Voidmage]

You're forgetting about Urianger. But this is why introducing new characters is important, even if you want to keep a trope running, you need new character to carry the old torch, Urianger can't just go behind our back and betray the group the 3rd or 4th time for the greater good, can he?

We could have had Koana fill a similar role.
Imagine a team of Wuk Lamat, Koana, Bagool JaJa and Zoral ja going into the final act with all the inner conflicts and actual character interactions.
The end credits actually HAVE pictures of them interacting it's sad.
Add Otis and Sphene into the mix with Krile and you would have had a real interesting party doing stuff together and at the end being forced to fight against each other.

We don't need the scions. We need new characters being handled like they deserve and I include Wuk Lamat in this too.
Such a waste of perfectly good characters.

God I wish I could nail this post on the door of Square Enix.

[Turtledeluxe]

The whole plot with the Endless kind of confirms my suspicions that the writer really dislikes intra-party conflicts. Wuk Lamat clearly believes that the Endless are real people, but is forced to fight to preserve her nation( the entire emotional impact of the last trial hinges on this).Meanwhile, everyone else is handwaving the Endless away as unnatural AI beings and this is causes a massive story disconnect with the player because the two sides never reconcile on this point. So now we have two views on the endless that, when taken together, paint us as being similar like the Ascians, acknowledging the endless have valid feelings, but are lesser so it’s ok to get rid of them.

Not really. It's just people who accept what it's in the game or don't. I took a few minutes to rewarch a few scenes and I can't count on one hand how many times the Endless told you they are recreated, that they are the dead and we are the living. They are just highly accurate recreations from memory that are alive in "all perceivable ways". The characters understand this and it's why they are ultimately able to do what would be unthinkable if those were actual original instances of the people they loved. But they aren't. They're just projections coming from a meso terminal.

You can either accept it or not. Don't tell other players they're evil based on your own denial.

Also as far as Wuk Lamat, she never says outright they are real. She said that they seem as real as any of us. Some of you really don't pay attention to the dialogue and it shows.

[lolnotacat]

The whole plot with the Endless kind of confirms my suspicions that the writer really dislikes intra-party conflicts. Wuk Lamat clearly believes that the Endless are real people, but is forced to fight to preserve her nation( the entire emotional impact of the last trial hinges on this).Meanwhile, everyone else is handwaving the Endless away as unnatural AI beings and this is causes a massive story disconnect with the player because the two sides never reconcile on this point. So now we have two views on the endless that, when taken together, paint us as being similar like the Ascians, acknowledging the endless have valid feelings, but are lesser so it’s ok to get rid of them.

The moment bun mom OK'd ending them because "They're not alive." and we just nodded along like a goddamn bobble head, I had completely given up on the story and started skipping. Hiroi wanted the emotional impact of Ultima Thule, but used cheap tricks to try and get it, not realizing why that entire zone resonated with almost everyone so deeply. But I shouldn't have expected anything less from Hiroi, he was doing the same thing over and over throughout the story (trying to illicit an emotional response which felt completely hollow) and by the end, he just added a whole layer of unintentional irony ontop by turning us into Ascians.

[Xieldras]

Losing Papalymo was a mistake. I don't mind his arc- it's more that he was the cynical, pessimistic voice within the group. Old Shtola was also a rational, hyper-pragmatic scion. No one is currently filling a similar role.
Now the latter became flanderized into a sophisticated "mommy" character that's constantly making sassy remarks and the former is, well, dead.
So there are rarely dissenting voices within the Scions. No one questions if the risk is worth taking for some "greater good", or if that good is really defensible or meaningful. No one goes "this is a bad idea" or "yes, what's the worst that could happen? We all die?". Even logistically, no one rarely goes "this is impossible with our current resources", it's always "we'll figure something out" or "we'll investigate it later". So everyone withing the group is basically on near-perfect agreement at all times, which is a very different dynamic from ARR and early HW.

Edit: that said, Papalymo coming with us to Tural could only go one of two ways- he's brainwashed and stripped of all character and becomes another Llama Tea "yes man"... or just imagine his sarcasm and constant annoyance at her dumbassery. I wish he were there with our WoL, to let her know exactly how dumb what she's saying and doing is.

I think it's also because Papalymo was a rather unique individual compared to the other Scions. He was the eldest (a "grumpy middle-aged man" that's about Raubhan's age) and a cynical that would call your bs out (he certainly did with Yda-before-Lyse) with strictness but not malice. Right now the group is comprised of all young adult from Old Sharlyan, that feel too much like one another because they're on the same wavelength for almost any situation, even while on opposite teams. Like you said, it's a completely different dynamic from the Scions we fought alongside before.

Man could you imagine if he were still around and brought his snarky ass to Tural? I would've loved to see him lose his mind at the stupidity of some situations. Could've been a greater player stand-in than my own nodding WoL that's for sure.