The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ

[chizLemons]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the story of this game has been a "whose genocide/omnicide is more justified" pissing contest since the beginning, but especially since Shadowbringers. The Hunting Logs having the sentient races in them is a contentious topic. The entire Ascian plotline is literally this. Even G'raha Tia is willing to erase an entire timeline and all the people who live in it because he misses his friends – the only reason why he doesn't have consequences is because... well, actually, it's never explained, so we don't know why.

I fail to see what the issue is all of a sudden when Venat's Sundering cutscene is one of the more highly regarded cutscenes in the game.

G'raha Tia didn't "erase a whole timeline because he misses his friends". He was trying to save the world, by going back in time and getting the person most likely to be able to save the First, and in the process, stop the 8th Umbral Calamity from happening. Were you reading the story at all?

Also, he didn't erase that timeline, it's still going on somewhere, he's just not there anymore. We actually have a short story about that.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

G'raha Tia didn't "erase a whole timeline because he misses his friends". He was trying to save the world, by going back in time and getting the person most likely to be able to save the First, and in the process, stop the 8th Umbral Calamity from happening. Were you reading the story at all?

Also, he didn't erase that timeline, it's still going on somewhere, he's just not there anymore. We actually have a short story about that.

He did it to save the world, huh? Which world? Definitely not his world as he abandoned it taking with him knowledge and technology that could have greatly improved the lives of the people living in the world he abandoned. Was the Source in a bad state after the eighth umbral calamity? Yes. But the Source has been in a bad state after every umbral calamity, and people have rebuilt. And thanks to the short story we know that they will rebuild again...just without the help of the Exarch and the Crystal Tower.

Maybe you think the First is the world he wanted to save. Why? Until he traveled there he knew nothing about them. The truth is he rewrote time to undo the death of one person fully expecting that action to erase himself and the original timeline. And actually, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with G'raha being so in love with the WoL that he was willing to delete an entire timeline to save them. What I'm not okay with is the preachiness and 'forge ahead' nonsense when we're over here rewriting time to get our desired outcomes. The hypocrisy is galling.

Because say saving the First was his true goal. Once we find out what caused the Flood, G'raha could have gone back in time again and warned Ardbert saving the entire planet from the Flood. Now THAT would be saving the world. So why is that never considered? Because his actual goal has been met, the WoL is alive and that's all he cares about. Also, if he did go back in time again, the timeline would split again so while A First would be spared the pain and suffering brought on by the Flood, OUR First would remain unchanged. And to that, I say exactly.

If this is all about saving the world, why don't we go back to before the creation of Meteion and warn the convocation? That'd be saving the world too, wouldn't it?

But no, the past is the past. You must forge ahead and soldier on...unless the WoL drops dead then time to dropkick time and space into the trash bin because some things are more important than a timeline full of people. Am I right?

[chizLemons]

He did it to save the world, huh? Which world? Definitely not his world (...snip for lenght)

You didn't read the short story I linked, did you? I recommend going back to it.

Although I do very much enjoy the idea of G'raha Tia being madly in love with the WoL, that's not the canon reason. It's clear that his admiration of the WoL as a hero played a huge part because of the amount of hope and trust he had on them, and he did personally want to save the WoL. So much so that he was willing to sacrifice himself in the end, AFTER saving the First - which no, he didn't want to save for any personal connection at first, but as explained in the MSQ, it's an important step to stopping the 8th Umbral Calamity: he had to stop the rejoining. But it wasn't a decision he made alone. They decided it was worth the risk, if not for them, then for another timeline, where the calamity wouldn't happen. It's in that story.

Also, the Crystal Tower isn't presented as an easy to use time machine that can go back and forth at will anytime he wants. He arrived in the First after the Flood of Light already happened, and I think it's been also mentioned that they didn't have control of when exactly would he arrive there, considering how time flows differently. He just needed to arrive before the death of the WoL. His plan was based on what he knew from the Source, because there was no way he had any knowledge about the First other than knowing about the rejoining.

Also quoting Voidmage's response:

To add to this.
It wasn’t his decision alone.
Many people came together and said „yes it’s worth the risk of us being erased for a better timeline somewhere else“.
There was resistance but even that is implied to have died down at the end when Midgardsommr was beginning to help and Omega „reawakened“.

[Voidmage]

If "it wasn't his decision alone" is a good reason to justify it, then there should be no qualms with shutting down the Endless, as they were all on-board with the decision.

I was just adding aditional information there. Nothing more.
If you want my opinion on the endless then it would be:
I think they are alive. They are a form of "clones" of the originals but nonetheless themself. Otherwise the whole thing with Krile's and Erenvilles parents wouldn't make no sense for me.
Their death was sad and a tragedy but the game didn't give us any other options and I say the game, because there clearly was a way and it get's to fast handwaved with "they all want that anyway".
I never said I justify genocide nor will I allow anyone to put those words into my mouth or twist my posts for that argument. Are we clear?

Although I do very much enjoy the idea of G'raha Tia being madly in love with the WoL, that's not the canon reason. It's clear that his admiration of the WoL as a hero played a huge part because of the amount of hope and trust he had on them, and he did personally want to save the WoL. So much so that he was willing to sacrifice himself in the end, AFTER saving the First - which no, he didn't want to save for any personal connection at first, but as explained in the MSQ, it's an important step to stopping the 8th Umbral Calamity: he had to stop the rejoining. But it wasn't a decision he made alone. They decided it was worth the risk, if not for them, then for another timeline, where the calamity wouldn't happen. It's in that story.

Also, the Crystal Tower isn't presented as an easy to use time machine that can go back and forth at will anytime he wants. He arrived in the First after the Flood of Light already happened, and I think it's been also mentioned that they didn't have control of when exactly would he arrive there, considering how time flows differently. He just needed to arrive before the death of the WoL. His plan was based on what he knew from the Source, because there was no way he had any knowledge about the First other than knowing about the rejoining.

I am not a fan of the G'Raha romance thing but I agree that the WoL is probably the most important person for them and that he was happy to take that risk and responsibility.
Yes, it was a huge amount of the survivors of the calamity. It is implied that the calamity was one of the most devastating and I wouldn't be surprised if even Elidibus had a hand in helping with stuff after that (that's his whole role).

Yeah they didn't have control. They used the towers power and Alexanders time stuff together with Omegas travel power and landet actually 100 years before they planed as far as I remember.
It was a huge gamble like you implied.

Edit:
I just saw you quoted me for the argument. Ah well, you are correct. Take my answer anyway. xD

[chizLemons]

I was just adding aditional information there. Nothing more.
If you want my opinion on the endless then it would be:
I think they are alive. They are a form of "clones" of the originals but nonetheless themself. Otherwise the whole thing with Krile's and Erenvilles parents wouldn't make no sense for me.
Their death was sad and a tragedy but the game didn't give us any other options and I say the game, because there clearly was a way and it get's to fast handwaved with "they all want that anyway".
I never said I justify genocide nor will I allow anyone to put those words into my mouth. Are we clear?

Edit:
I just saw you quoted me for the argument. Ah well, you are correct. Take my answer anyway. xD

It's fine, sorry it was confusing :x should've answered all of it before quoting you for clarity! I'm in full agreement with you here!


Just my two cents on the Endless, I think i'ts yet another example of something the game handled badly. It's actually a really cool discussion to have, if we really think they're alive and how that should be treated...except the story didn't go that route and didn't want us to have that discussion. It decided for us that we just shouldn't think too much about it, they're unsustainable and should be shut down, just wanted us to go "shhh, think of the emotional scenes and move on. If you think TOO much it will break those scenes, so just...don't think."

And after the tribe quests in Ultima Thule, and what was presented to us in the area in general, it's also inconsistent with what the game understands consists of life. Is it the memory? Is it the soul? From my understanding, it was the consciousness. And the Endless are conscious. They're able to interact and form new memories.

[Voidmage]

It's fine, sorry it was confusing :x should've answered all of it before quoting you for clarity! I'm in full agreement with you here!


Just my two cents on the Endless, I think i'ts yet another example of something the game handled badly. It's actually a really cool discussion to have, if we really think they're alive and how that should be treated...except the story didn't go that route and didn't want us to have that discussion. It decided for us that we just shouldn't think too much about it, they're unsustainable and should be shut down, just wanted us to go "shhh, think of the emotional scenes and move on. If you think TOO much it will break those scenes, so just...don't think."

And after the tribe quests in Ultima Thule, and what was presented to us in the area in general, it's also inconsistent with what the game understands consists of life. Is it the memory? Is it the soul? From my understanding, it was the consciousness. And the Endless are conscious. They're able to interact and form new memories.

It's fine.

Fully agree.
The endless are an interesting phylosophical thing in the story and I would enjoyed that topic in the game and out of it.
It's too bad the game won't go into that whole thing deeper.
We could have had flashbacks to Emet's words, we could have had Endless struggling with the decision and Wuk Lamat having character growth there, or we could have had with the deactivations Sphene breaking down more and more. Instead even she was fine with it and didn't even comment on the whole thing.
Even the credits are a happy ever after.

What a bummer.
Such a missed chance.

[TELOS]

I was just adding aditional information there. Nothing more.
If you want my opinion on the endless then it would be:
I think they are alive. They are a form of "clones" of the originals but nonetheless themself. Otherwise the whole thing with Krile's and Erenvilles parents wouldn't make no sense for me.
Their death was sad and a tragedy but the game didn't give us any other options and I say the game, because there clearly was a way and it get's to fast handwaved with "they all want that anyway".
I never said I justify genocide nor will I allow anyone to put those words into my mouth or twist my posts for that argument. Are we clear?

I was just talking about the original subject, the Endless and how XIV treats the deaths of societies historically, being discussed. I also explicitly was not calling it genocide, but omnicide. Nothing you've said here changes my response.

[SongOfTheWind]

But no, the past is the past. You must forge ahead and soldier on...unless the WoL drops dead then time to dropkick time and space into the trash bin because some things are more important than a timeline full of people. Am I right?

Pretty much this.

[TELOS]

G'raha Tia didn't "erase a whole timeline because he misses his friends". He was trying to save the world, by going back in time and getting the person most likely to be able to save the First, and in the process, stop the 8th Umbral Calamity from happening. Were you reading the story at all?

Also, he didn't erase that timeline, it's still going on somewhere, he's just not there anymore. We actually have a short story about that.

I know he didn't erase the timeline. I read the short story. I'm also talking about exclusively his motivation/intent. He didn't care if he was going to erase the timeline, and in that exact short story they talk about how it's a possibility. They all knew it was a risk, and he did it anyway.

And I'm also saying there's no lore reason why he didn't erase the timeline. Considering what Endwalker's treatment of the Ancients was, where you explicitly cannot change the events of the past, it's a head-scratcher.