Regarding Dungeon Feedback: Don’t Listen to People Who Don’t Know How to Play

[alfarini]

Adding my name here for no changes, leave it alone. The content and even the whole expac hasent even been out for a full month (barring early access). Nor do we have the full suite of content yet in 7.0, people need to adapt to the new content Yoshi P said was going to come for many many months now.

If your new welcome and if your an older player, also welcome. If your a player that wants this content braindead, watered down, and all round boring then please understand your the minority here, and we have been asking for content to be engaging again and fun to play for a while now.

I could keep writing more but honestly I'm tired of the turbocasuals trying to make the game braindead again so I'm leaving it at that.

[Jukebox12]

Honestly it is mostly the midcore players who are ignored in this game. this game has become to easy to the point that i had to leave this game to get content that i crave

[Jaxtaro]

I agree also that there has been unsavory tactics, mostly what in negotiation training which is referred to as "bleeding" or magnifying the negative ramifications of an action for dramatic effect and to try to use that to their advantage, as well as some nasty name calling, although it is less intimidating than the inverse, it contributes to the uncivil atmosphere.

Since none of us have any ability to actually do anything, the next step is clearly to go and have fun and see if either people adapt or something gets done.

I appreciate the interaction, and hope that at least you'll recognize that not everyone on this side is braindead or screaming for everything to be dumbed down.

[Bibine_Bine]

Sure. Yoshi-P once famously said if you want harder content go do Ultimates.

Oh my god, I am so sick of seeing this line repeated over and over. So many people act as if it's this stupid dichotomy where you either have babymode easy content or hardcore content. Not everyone wants to dedicate the time or effort to clearing ex/savage/ultimate. Some people just want a reasonable challenge and not feeling like they're going to fall asleep at their keyboard.

[Strike_]

You cannot just ask the dev team to ignore one side of the feedback, that's simply not how it's going to work. If you ask the Devs to completely ignore one side of the community then the game won't have a future either, like it or not there is a need for casual players too. There can be easy content in this game as well as challenging.

to be absolutely brutally honest, you can beat any dungeon with duty support as DPS while literally doing nothing but dodging while the npc's do damage. if you legitimately cannot clear a dungeon, there's a significant problem with your gameplay, and the devs should respond to that feedback by either discarding it or adding better non-mandatory tutorials.

[Dovaah]

People complaining about difficulty is the reason why Bozja was abandoned and that we had what might have been the worst relic questline since ARR in Endwalker. It also didn't help with the content drought.
Leave the midcore playerbase have their fun, the hardcore player have it, the bad players have it, now its our turn thank you.

[Mihka]

The real takeaway the devs really need from all of this is that the game they made has failed to teach players how to play the game.

Hall of the Novice is woefully out of date, with outright incorrect and harmful advice, and the difficulty of the average content in the game has failed to increase with the expected experience of players (I have a feeling them selling story skips has a lot to do with this).

[Puyocha]

(1/2)
I am not replying to anything specifically. I just want to drop an experience I had at the 97ID in US server...
Was tanking as Drk, pulling slow, but the walls are closed off mostly in the 97ID, so I can't pull too much anyways.
Used my cooldowns methodically, having 2 cooldowns on at most times, and with TBN and reprisal on whenever I am pulling.
(You guys can call me elitist if you want, but I clear some savage before and I did the extremes this tier in JP-Meteor, so I just want to express I know my cooldowns to certain extent)
The issue is, I still felt the damage, and this isn't an overtune problem, because this hardly happens in JP server...
The scholar in the party...was giving me shields after I have received damage...and healer cooldowns were hardly activated...
Maybe they are trying a job they never did before, or maybe they main this job, I have no idea.
This is not common, but often enough to feel the difference between the player culture in JP vs US.


Don't get me wrong, I don't want to target healers or any server for hate, I am sharing this,
because I want to share my experience to bring up the question : Even if the devs are listening to all comments,
which comments are more valuable or which comments gives them a better and fuller picture of the whole situation?

When people on forums players claims who plays for long time, know their jobs and knows how to play the game
How do we know if this is factually true? I am not claiming people are lying but every comment on the forums is subjective.
What % of these players actually do know their jobs,
but just need to learn mechanics, or need simpler tells and/or longer time to digest what's happening?

And what % of players actually don't know their job? Or isn't really used to mechanics? Specifically new style of mechanics
(If people still do lv50MSQ dungeon/raid will notice they changed a lot of mechanics there and
they do stack and teach you you can move into aoe as long as you leave before it explodes)

Don't get me wrong, casual battle contents should still exists for those who enjoy it,
and there is no doubt the game has got more "difficult"(engaging) and I understand their standpoint because everyone wants more content for them.
I have friends who used to do savage with me, who we did M1-4 together, felt normal M1-3 were slightly "harder" than P1-3.
Not an issue but it is true that it got a lil' busier, and it does cause them more stress too, and we also have day jobs, so yea...

[Puyocha]

(2/2)
I acknowledge that with a vase player base, there will be a huge spectrum, but we as players have no data whatsoever on how able the players are in the whole spectrum,
and the devs may have more data, but I doubt they have ALL the data. You can't make a game for everyone, otherwise it will be for no one.

There are always options, but all options has trade offs:

1) Make MSQ slightly more engaging or harder (depends how you view it) to help players get accustom to mechanics in normal
(what they have picked, I am personally enjoying it, but it creates the current problem.)
OR
2) Make MSQ the way it used to ,then make hard mode dungeons(with more rewards) using more resources (Not criterion, but more like ARR hard modes)
(older players who actually knows how to play jobs and mechanics will get bored easily and it takes more SQEX resources to do so)
OR
3) Make trust system even easier than it is for players who only wants to clear story.
(this means every one can clear, and it becomes a choice, seems all good, except this will never improve the player base and will make it even less of an MMO)


But the ultimate question is this:
How do we cater to players when we don't exactly know which players are at which level of game play?
The easiest player to understand are the hardcore players, and sure they have been catered and "eating good"
But the real question now is how do we distinguish players who are mid core, casual who knows how to play and those casuals who are here for story?
From reading most of the post lately, the real arguments are now between these groups here.

What every one should try to understand is the fact that not all players who are arguing for harder content are that hardcore.
The midcore players want content for them too, that doesn't mean that if they think normal MSQ is too easy, then they should just jump to savage or ultimates.
And every one should also understand that the current MSQ is not as casual friendly as it was, this is true.

This is going into philosophy territory...but yea,
how can the devs create content for people who wants to bath in lukewarm bath, while still wants to keeping self-esteem in front of others in an MMO?
Would be it condescending to make a mode so easy for players to just stroll through with zero stress?
Or is it possible to make players step up by encouraging them to improve?
That is a question that is unanswerable in all multiplayer games, because all of these problems are completely subjective.

[jdtuggey]

...

I mean, we don't have to "know" anything, we can express our opinions and throw it on to the pile.
Ultimately, I don't think the reason they made dawntrail more dynamic is only because players have been actively asking for it.
These companies gather data while you play, they know on what people die, they also know how much.
They know what people clear, what they don't.
They can probably go as deep as comparing how much each individual player died in X expansion compared to W expansion.
They also like... Play the game. Yoshi P plays a Lalafell, and you better not talk against lalafell to him, he will send you to WoL heaven.
They looked at the feedback they get, put it against their own experience, and then put it against the data they have.
That's how they come to their own conclusions before making changes.
That's why I defer to the team, I wouldn't have been here saying the content should be harder in endwalker, I would've just left if it hadn't changed, but am certainly gonna defend this new direction in Dawntrail, it's in my interests and it's what CBU3 wants and thinks is best for everyone.
1- It's the decision the people the game belongs to made. Doesn't matter if you paid for it, it's not yours. You paid for a license.
2- Dawntrail being more dynamic suits my interests. Like Yoshi P, I was sleepy during EW lategame dungeons. ;o;
3- Because I know they made this decision in full knowledge of what's up, because they most likely have infinite data about how we engage with the game, and they came to the conclusions that led to Dawntrail being more dynamic with that. People often assume they know the full reality when they comment on topics like this, but they only have data on their own experience and a couple of others. Square has data on how everyone engages with the game. :P

Like, let's be real, people who are having trouble haven't even given themselves the chance to learn the new content, soon as they felt a little bit of resistance, they came to the forums in all their entitlement. Once you learn it, it doesn't feel harder at all.
Concerning data, it's so valuable to these companies, you can be absolutely 100% certain that they're collecting all the data they can about your usage. I don't think you all need to worry about security, they're not selling it, they're using it to tailor the experience to the silent majority. Indirect way to make sure they keep getting your money, but it's also in your (or at least most people's) interest. Square "hears" the silent majority through this, something we don't have to properly judge the whole situation.

And like, this is a bit more personal, am a producer, I make music, like, imagine going on spotify, listening to an artist's song, and not liking it.
Instead of going to listen to another artist, you petition the artist for them to change their style because they got paid royalties for you listening, therefore they have to cater to you. It makes -NO SENSE AT ALL- in this context, and just about every other context, but with video games, a lot of gamers do this for some reason ? I'm here to experience CBU3's creative vision, not the creative vision of some random dude who can't clear M2, sorry. ;o;
If their creative vision stops aligning with what I like in a game, I speak with my money, I don't ask for it to change, I let the artist come to that decision.
If they don't want my money, it's fine, I won't twist their arm to take it, they've made a choice, and I respect that, I will move on.

Also am not targeting you directly, these are general statements. ♥