Yoshi P - Your next live letter, DT msq and the damage to the brand

[Raven2014]

Oh boy. I think you're really confusing yourself on what I was posting about, which was that literary criticism doesn't equate to objective truth about the quality of a story.

I understand what you said, I'm asking what is your point. Now, if you make a topic to talk about the whole "everyone is validated but no one is right" mentality than ... sure, I see your point ... in a vacuum. But in the context of a discussion, I would have to assume what the participants will make points that relevant to the topic. I'm just trying to ascertain what yours is, or is it just a random take some irrelevant self-insert talking point.

Even if you gonna argue about the lack of an objective truth to define quality, in order to hold a proper discussion there will always be need to establish some soft guildline, standard or metrics. That's why we quantify things all the time, even if the variables are originally qualitative. Otherwise ... like I said, everyone is validated but no one can be right, and it's just whataboutism all the way through.

[Striker44]

I think it general MMO growth is in decline; a example would be the steam charts showing that Dawntrail did not maintain a higher peak playerbase as Endwalker; which looking at the trends since HW Steam charts have showed a increase in peak player base (Storm 25k, Shadow 38K Endwalker 95k; Dawn 91k) So just using that singular example of hard data we are seeing a decline - word of mouth deterring players from returning; keep in mind this is only Steam and technically has not been out for a month (shy by 5 days due to EA)

Very important to note that the EW start was "inflated" because it occurred during the infamous "WoW exodus." I think once we hit the .1 patch, it'll be a better 1-to-1 comparison (need to get past both the "spike" from the exodus and the "trough" that occurred when it was over).

[Nothv13]

Very important to note that the EW start was "inflated" because it occurred during the infamous "WoW exodus." I think once we hit the .1 patch, it'll be a better 1-to-1 comparison (need to get past both the "spike" from the exodus and the "trough" that occurred when it was over).

Should note that EW post expansion content was also seen as pretty bad, so if DT has good post patch, it could retain players better. As of now, during the actual expansion, it is losing players faster than EW did. Using Steamd in less than a month it has fallen to a point that EW took a month and half to fall to.)

[Malthir]

I mean, you're trying to pass it off as objectively bad by using aspects of literary theory and criticism. But nothing about literary criticism is objective and it never has been.

Literary standards have changed multiple times over the centuries. Some things that were once accepted as the "right way" to do things have fallen out of favor, and things that were once considered average, controversial, or bad, are now hailed as cornerstones of literature. Not to mention the fact that for every "rule" that there is about good writing, it can be subverted by someone that decides to purposefully break convention.

I'm not here to change your opinion, because I don't really care to do so. But just as an example to show how subjective opinions like that are, I'll pick on the "Wuk Lamat and Erenville are childhood friends" bit you posted earlier. From my standpoint, I'm wondering why you need some sort of overt gesture in game to show you that? And why do you think the dialogue doesn't show it?

That's not even slightly true, the standards of good story telling haven't changed overtime, which is why we have archtypes that have been around for thousands of years.

You can 100% be objective when critiquing all art. For example, in music you can tell if someone is playing off beat. In dance someone can be slow to the beat. In writing you can tell the audience a lot of back ground information without showing them, or telling them this is how this character feels instead of having the characters go through emotional states and changes, you can gloss over all the actual emotional development and end plotlines before they have room to develop, all of which are things they did in this expac. These are core fundamentals in storytelling, they haven't changes at all over the years and no matter who looks at them, they can see the writers spent too much time on, cutscenes static info dumping or reiterating points already explained without furthering the plot and not enough time on their character development, which is why their characters just flip personalities as the plot demands.

The reason why the points I brought up are objective critique is because regardless of how you feel about the story, the way Bakool goes from genocidal sociopath, to someone willing to potentially sacrifice for/protect the weak in the span of a single 3m cutscene is a 100% complete personality shift in 3ms dialogue. That's not my opinion that's a fact of what happens. If I said I don't like Wuk because she's loud and in your face, that would be subjective. However, nowhere have I given a single piece of subjective criticism. I have purely address poor writing, not my opinion about the story. My opinion, is that the writing is a very juvenile attempt at exploring consumerism and nihilism, with a whole lot of someone shoving their own developmental trauma into the plot.

[Volgia]

"Nuh uh, that's just your opinion.".

That's what you and I have been saying to each other for days, it's just you add a "and there's an objective fundamental and universal true as to why my opinion is right. "

[St0rmy]

As a whole DT is still my favorite expansion but I genuinely do hope they consider rewrites for post-patch MSQ if it involves Wuk Lamat too much. My goodness, I liked her at the start of DT but she just wears you down. I could've been happy with it if she stopped being so prominent after the first half and then the focus shifted to Erenville and Krile but that really didn't happen.

It is quite baffling how they put all their eggs into this one character who they had to have known wasn't going to be well received.

As far as them addressing the criticisms it goes, I don't think they will. We won't hear anything about the writing or Wuk Lamat VA. They're going to continue with what they had originally planned, at least that's my expectations.

[Septha]

Whoever agrees with OP needs to chill bruh. The story for this expansion wasn't as great as Shadowbringers and Endwalker later half. But, I still think this expansion carries Stormblood, Heavensward and ARR. If you think they need to apologize for anything on a live letter, you should seeketh helpeth. Touch grass, go read a book.

[Xellith]

Whoever agrees with OP needs to chill bruh. The story for this expansion wasn't as great as Shadowbringers and Endwalker later half. But, I still think this expansion carries Stormblood, Heavensward and ARR. If you think they need to apologize for anything on a live letter, you should seeketh helpeth. Touch grass, go read a book.

I've read books. That's why Dawntrail annoys me so much.

[Striker44]

It's actually at 60% at the moment. I suspect it will settle at 58% and then rise slightly if the patch content is good.

I'll put my prediction out there that by the time the expansion is over, it'll be back in the 75-80% range. It started at 86% until word got out that it users were rating it very positively, then suddenly dropped. Classic review bombing from one small segment. Give it time for not only the patch content, but just regular ole' players in general who are enjoying the game to add their own reviews and it will pop back up.

Should note that EW post expansion content was also seen as pretty bad, so if DT has good post patch, it could retain players better. As of now, during the actual expansion, it is losing players faster than EW did. Using Steamd in less than a month it has fallen to a point that EW took a month and half to fall to.)

Again, EW at this point isn't a valid comparison since the "WoW exodus" was still going on. You had a large group of people join who weren't even there for the "new" content but had a ton of old content they were playing through, and who were still mad at Blizzard. You don't have that this time around. Frankly, the fact that DT's opening # is so close to EW's even without a similar anomalous influx is incredible.

[Nothv13]

I'll put my prediction out there that by the time the expansion is over, it'll be back in the 75-80% range. It started at 86% until word got out that it users were rating it very positively, then suddenly dropped. Classic review bombing from one small segment. Give it time for not only the patch content, but just regular ole' players in general who are enjoying the game to add their own reviews and it will pop back up.



Again, EW at this point isn't a valid comparison since the "WoW exodus" was still going on. You had a large group of people join who weren't even there for the "new" content but had a ton of old content they were playing through, and who were still mad at Blizzard. You don't have that this time around. Frankly, the fact that DT's opening # is so close to EW's even without a similar anomalous influx is incredible.

SteamDB shows steady, smooth growth of both positive and negative reviews. It doesn't show spikes of negatives that would be associated with review bombing. Also Steamdb shows that it was never at 86% on steam. The highest it had was day 1 of early access and that was 75%

Those that came in Endwalker come back for the new expansion because ShB and Endwalker was a positive good experience, that is how DT pulled the numbers. No EW to show how good the game is and hype it up (as it was getting lots of hype since ShB), DT doesn't pull near the numbers it has.