Omicrons and The Endless (Do Endless Dream of Electric Sheep?)

[Boblawblah]

There are two ways I was interpreting this comment.

1. "Don't think about product, just consume." Which is reductive, and I doubt that was the intent, trying to not see the absolute worst in other people for a change.

2. "People care too much, and that's bad." Which, you know, valid. I think you should consider not just what we have on the surface, but what happens when the potentiality of a plot arc reaches it's terminus. To abridge a really, really subjective topic, once a writer has written something into the canon (In this case, DT, in previous cases, the sundering), those outcomes are now fixed without substantial retcons to the canon. This is a problem for some outlooks on things like perspective, morals, or congruence with a player's character and the player themselves. For better or worse, people put themselves into the plot as a self-insert. I can't really fault anyone for that.

This is why people get so insanely mad when someone says "The Endless are not alive." because that's what the story is telling us in plain text in the moment, but not what the story is showing us, presumably for the intent of drawing out emotions from the audience over the situation. The discrepancy grows more severe the more sympathetic one is towards non-traditional definitions of things such as sentience or actualization, which can come from previous examples in XIV itself (specifically auspices come to mind) or from other works, such as Soma or Signalis. It's like...narrative cognitive dissonance, and some people are way, way more susceptible to that kind of double-logic, to the point where the entire plot fails to maintain a suspension of disbelief for the intent of storytelling, and then becomes less of a fun ride and more of a tedious, arguably frustrating waffle. This varies per person. If the argument then becomes, "It's not real, so who cares, it's just a story." I mean, people care about what they care about. Can't really blame them if they spend 300+ hours getting to that point at a bare minimum in order to even discuss the plot details properly.

For number 1, no, I've always been a proponent of voting with your wallet. If you're not happy, stop paying for something. I go out of my way to applaud those that do so, even when they do the whole "I'M QUITTING" posts.

For number 2, eh, it's closer to that, but more of a 'what are you expecting exactly?' musing. Are all of these thousands of posts simply a rant? Finding someone else who was frustrated and sharing that frustration? I can understand that for sure, I've done it lots. But are people honestly expecting something to change? We've had years of "Venat committed genocide", there's no way people can honestly think that the writers are going to simply retcon entire expansions to change what happened and how it was framed, but here we are, still yelling about it.

I guess I'm fortunate in that if I dislike a story (the final zone in DT for example) I rant about it a bit, get frustrated, and then I move on. The story isn't changing. They're not going to suddenly remove Wuk from 90% of the quests. They're not going to let me ignore making the endless happy and just turn them off like I wanted to, or call Sphene out on her obvious nonsense.

Eh, I'm not saying to stop arguing, I was simply wondering what result would make the really angry people happy, and I'm not seeing any plausible answer.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I think part of the problem is people are asking the wrong questions.

Are the Endless alive? No. Not by our definition of life. But you know what is alive? Bacteria. That bug I just squashed was alive. Life isn't actually the metric we're looking for here.

Do the Endless have souls? Nope. But who cares? Bees have souls. The vending machine downstairs will sell you as many souls as you want if you have the credits. Souls are currency now.

The real question, the actual question is 'Were the Endless people?' And by every perceivable metric, yes, they were people, they had dreams, they had ambitions, they had regrets, they could deduce things, they could love, they could experience fear and pain. So yes, we deleted an entire race of people in between boat rides and ice cream and that was tacky.

Did we have a choice? Not really. The writers decided two queens who love peace and happiness couldn't cooperate for 15 minutes because it was time to wrap this thing up, so Sphene was going to destroy the Source, she had to be stopped and they connected the other terminals to her existence, so even if we left the other terminals up, they would have gone down when we killed Sphene.

So if they were that desperate to make the player wipe out a people to save their own, they should have given that choice the gravity it deserved. To assure us we have nothing to feel guilty about and then spending the rest of the zone attempting to milk as much guilt and shame out of us as possible was really bad writing. When Krile's parents deduce what we are there to do and ask, Krile and Co lower their heads in shame and Krile suggests they find another way...we just deleted a bunch of kids and NOW you want to find another way?

Either these were people and wiping them out should have been treated with way more gravity or they were nothing and all the time effort we put towards appeasing them made no sense. Both can't be true at the same time.

[Ayche]

Juxtaposition and contrivance is what stories are made of.
Consider vampires, they need to drink human blood to survive. One might ask "Well why can't they just substitute it with animal blood or artificial blood", but that is refusing to look at the "why" of vampires. Vampires are bad because they are parasites, they exist at the expense of others. That is their narrative essence.
The writers chose to write the inevitable conflict with the Endless because they wanted to say something with the story. That the Endless require blank souls and only blank souls exactly because the story is not meant to be a story of bad logistics or economics of energy.

[OdinelStarrei]

For number 1, no, I've always been a proponent of voting with your wallet. If you're not happy, stop paying for something. I go out of my way to applaud those that do so, even when they do the whole "I'M QUITTING" posts.

For number 2, eh, it's closer to that, but more of a 'what are you expecting exactly?' musing. Are all of these thousands of posts simply a rant? Finding someone else who was frustrated and sharing that frustration? I can understand that for sure, I've done it lots. But are people honestly expecting something to change? We've had years of "Venat committed genocide", there's no way people can honestly think that the writers are going to simply retcon entire expansions to change what happened and how it was framed, but here we are, still yelling about it.

I guess I'm fortunate in that if I dislike a story (the final zone in DT for example) I rant about it a bit, get frustrated, and then I move on. The story isn't changing. They're not going to suddenly remove Wuk from 90% of the quests. They're not going to let me ignore making the endless happy and just turn them off like I wanted to, or call Sphene out on her obvious nonsense.

Eh, I'm not saying to stop arguing, I was simply wondering what result would make the really angry people happy, and I'm not seeing any plausible answer.

Woah, you applaud people for quitting straight to their face? That could potentially be pretty infuriating for those people, does that work without making people even more upset? I've seen so many passive aggressive jabs at other people's expense in situations similar to this, I imagine that fosters a bit of a negative perception.

I'll speak for myself as a certified Venat hater, as you've mentioned it again and it's probably the closest analogue we have. The writers knew that some people were not going to like the actions Venat did. If anything, people in 3.4 who were saying Hydalaen was probably not to be trusted were kinda vindicated when the more dubious implications of the actions committed in the time of the Ancients were brought to light. I disliked her portrayal, a bit too heroic for such a tragic act. However, the writers did give me an out. As a character, I was given the ability to vouch for my own perspective. I told them "Yeah, I'm actually not the biggest fan of what she did. I'm not going to justify it, even if I don't have her vaulted Answer. I can't morally support it, but I'm willing to clean up the mess." This is a small form of agency that is given to the player as either complete validation for those who completely agree, which is a reasonable perspective based on the circumstances, or a small token of objection for those who didn't. Both sides get SOMETHING, is my point. Ironically enough, this exact conversation is held in the presence of both Alpha and Omega, artificially created beings who "gained" a soul. If you threw them into Origenics, I wonder if they would be classified as Beast or Man? Both answers have serious implications, in my eyes.

This is completely lacking in DT so far, and I think part of that problem is because the story was not given the amount of time, both in writing and literal screen time, needed to develop and portray the conflict in a way that allowed multiple perspectives to walk away from the plot having gained something. I actually think both sides lose in this plotline. If you thought the Endless were not people, you wasted your time talking to them instead of just turning them off right away. If you thought the Endless were people, for whatever reason, you committed an atrocity with very little internal doubt/conflict.

As for "what would make me happy?" or "what do I expect the writers to do about it?", that's not my place to decide really. People want an outlet to voice their discontent, and one was provided. And it links back to my original post. I can conjure up any sort of realities that would be more satisfying to me personally, and they will pale in comparison to whatever the writers cook up, because it's tailored to my preferences. However, I think the take away in totality should not be, "RETCON THE STORY AND KILL WUK LAMAT NOW!!!!" but instead, "Stop trying to tell too many stories at once, particularly if the stories are so vastly different/complicated they need the space in multiple expansions." or "If you're going to commit to a low stakes story, commit to the low stakes story." or "Don't allow one character's presence to become overcentralizing to the entire plot, especially if they are a risky, non-established character." or "Plot threads that have the potential to overlap with previous plotlines in themes or characters or concepts should have those writers offer consultation on how they weave together without conflict or contradiction to maintain thematic cohesion of the entire storyline." It's those kinds of summarizations of feedback that I think are really important, and those are the things I imagine are going to be taken into consideration if there is ever some kind of internal "What happened with DT? Analysis and Summary of collected feedback" report to senior writing staff.

What would make me happy? A better game, probably. Would be nice if it was this one! And we're always changing as a live service game. As I said before, the potential keeps people in.

[GTK0HLK]

<Line that Clearly States that any attempted rehash of the same old argument is throw out. Only Bother Responding to that which hasn't been brought up. But Overall, Don't take any of the beliefs that the Endless are Living, in the now of the story at all, as serious.>

Recall someone stating that the WoL/D had died multiple times.
And immediately thought of how we are fading in and out of consciousness.
And Thought, oh this will be interesting.
(Or other times, that never happened)

No it Fn Wasn't.
The WoL/D never died, all that was is the outcome of a Timeline that was averted as soon as the WoL/D became involved with the Crystal Tower, and Went to the 1st.

Why did that user bring in something so irrelevant, no wonder others didn't bother responding to it.

__________________________________________

One thing we know, is that entities can Spend all their Aether/Soul Energy.
Just like Venat did in the last fight.

(Based on the idea that Soul Energy was needed for These Engrams/Savefiles. and they had neither, the only thing that remained, are "perceived updates" of what the system generated for them. and what the system imagined their Happiness will be based on the memories of others. and not the persons actual life or choices.)

They aren't even the person that once lived to begin with.

ITS WHY EVEN AT THE END, THE CONSTRUCT WITH SPHENES MEMORIES NEVER CONSIDERED THEMSELVES THE ORIGINAL.
And Strived to remove the limitations the Savefiles had on it. The same Data that was forcing it to act like the queen could of. Rather than the machine it was.

__________________________________________

(If we had a chance to speak with them at all. and just shoved our way through others getting in the way. we may have convinced them. I joke that the Expac is: "No one knows that i..," meme as the WoL/D is sipping their cup behind the rambling npcs we are following. But it honestly truly was. Would of told Zoraal Ja. Your Fights with Her/LmaoT'y. as I pushed past his blade.)

[Cause as she is a machine, there's much that it doesn't know. Even as advanced as their Nation was. It doesn't know everything. With the memories of Sphene being the final leverage to convince them. Rather than trying to brute force with emotion like every other character(except for the well written few) and Antagonists did, and failed]

__________________________________________

Ultima Thule was never gonna work as an example. For not once did the Endless ever show an inkling of being able to overcome their limitations.

It took one Endless, equivalent to a WoL/D party members(cause she was part of Gulool Ja Jas Party) to even be able to see the outside world.
And even that, wasn't really enough.

(All this to say, they can't and don't even use Dynamis in their forms. Which the living, diluted In Aether can once trained.
With how dependant they are with Soul Energy, they are likely too dense to even notice it in the first place.)

The closes would be the Phantom Recreated Amarout. and as we know with Phantom Hythlo. They aren't real, and Aren't Alive.

The BEST THAT CAN BE GOTTEN FROM SUCH THINGS. Is Solace, Comfort, Moving Forward for the living.

The Dead are gone.
The Living Bear the loss. and then move forwards. (Unless, you're Alexandrian, and get your memories blotted out/removed. And Prevent the Natural Lifestream)

[SongOfTheWind]

I think part of the problem is people are asking the wrong questions.

Oh, please. This is now what, a tenth thread about this topic for the last few weeks? People were writing essays and asking all sort of questions, including this one, including this thread. It’s still pointless as writers didn’t bother to ask themselves anything.
Sure, come in and share your valuable thoughts on the matter, but please look around and realise that it’s been going on in circles for ages.

[Turtledeluxe]

Ah yes, we didn't have time to consider alternative solutions to the endless or discuss the moral implications of what we were about to do.

We didn't have time. Sphene was making calculations to begin enacting her plan. Did you even play the game???

Wuk Lamat: Even if we cannot be friends right now, we need to find a different path forward. A way that Tuliyollal and Alexandria can coexist.

Sphene: I fear that can never be. There is no other path for us. It's too late.

Alisae: Hear me, Sphene . We appreciate your commitment to serving the Alexandrians and have endeavored to understand your beliefs. Be that as it may, you must know it is wrong to sacrifice our living to save your dead.

Sphene: For them I will do anything. No price is too high. if bloodshed will save my subjects, I will become history's most brutal Queen.

Reading is important.

Sphene was not interested in alternative solutions.

[SongOfTheWind]

We didn't have time. Sphene was making calculations to begin enacting her plan. Did you even play the game???

Sphene was not interested in alternative solutions.

And why do we care if she was interested or not? Us defeating her has nothing to do with the fate of the Living Memory. She didn’t even notice we shut down it already. The question of why we were doing it before confronting her was never answered.

[Vhana]

A soul is defined by Otis in cutscenes as well as Origenics in the console logs you can interact with. A soul can be defined in 2 ways. Most people's definition of a "soul" and the way Otis uses it is actually a combination of memory aether and soul aether. There is no such thing as a "soul" by itself. It's one of the reasons I get irritated when I see people only saying "soul" or only using "memories" when, in a technical sense, soul aether is nothing but a battery to a body like electronics, and memory aether (thanks to otis's description as well as our own observations) is more than just memories.

This is what Soul is as defined by the Alexandrians. Given what they do with Soul Aether it would make sense that their society believes Soul is just a battery with no other inherent value.

The Ancients had a very different view of Soul Aether because people among them could see that each Soul had a distinct colour. And that Soul, when reborn, would have similar core traits while being a new and different person. Being able to recognize Soul is how the Unsundered were able to find the correct people to awaken with the sundered convocation member's Memory.

Soul + Body + Memory is what makes a 'person' in this world. Devaluing any of them leads to trouble in this setting. Memory is important. It is the piece that best represents a person as they are in the present. But! Cahciua's Memory would not have been 'Cahciua' without first having been that Soul in that Body experiencing that life. The Alexandrian's chose to preserve Memory while treating one of the core components that allowed that Memory to be created to begin (Soul) with as wholly disposable fuel source. It is more than that.

[Rowde]

And why do we care if she was interested or not? Us defeating her has nothing to do with the fate of the Living Memory. She didn’t even notice we shut down it already. The question of why we were doing it before confronting her was never answered.

Exactly, I know this guy doesn't like the g-word, but we are collectively punishing the beings, entities, people known as the Endless because of the individual actions of Sphene. Another component of the g-word is dehumanization, othering the opponent as subhuman so it's "okay" to terminate them. Sounds a little similar to what the worstgirl Cahcuia was saying... but i digress. The current state of the Endless is something that has been done to them by Sphene, she is the one we should have stopped first and then we should have tried to find a way to help the Endless if we could afterward. Then the naysayers will go back to the "there was no time" argument, when clearly we had plenty of time to meander about the zone before shutting down the terminals.


On a lark I decided to use advanced search on the forums for [venat, genocide] and it returned 107 results. I then searched [sin eater, moral], ["sin eater", moral], ["sin eater", morality] and ["sin eater", ethic] and got 4 results total. I wonder why not as many people were hung up on defeating sin eaters even though they're also people that have been transformed against their will? Perhaps it was because they clearly communicated through the narrative in a single profound scene what it means to "become a sin eater" in a way that apparently got everyone to buy in to the conceit that there was no coming back from that.


Furthermore, with Arcadion they're now expanding on the society of modern Alexandia and the corruption that can exist there. How a powerful individual can forcibly remove a regulator so that when the wearer dies (and presumably didn't get to become an Endless if that's what they wanted before we shut all that down) the rest of the populace continues to remember them and assumes they "retired." Now this is fanfic on my part, but if regulators can be abused as such, then the inverse could also be true and a regulator could be forcibly attached to someone to manipulate the memories of the populace so that they forget the victim existed (and potentially become an Endless against their will before we shut all that down). We don't know how many of the Endless fully bought into the program. How many actually understand how their energy system works? How many would be willing to fight to continue living that existence? How many could be convinced to aid us to find an alternative solution if it was explained to them?

We didn't try to save them from Sphene.