Dark Kight again, i know there are other post but lets push it

[Tunda]

Risk/reward doesn't exist in FFXIV. Damage rotations are rigid and fights are scripted to the millisecond. This is not unique to DRK, it's just how the game is designed.

It does exist in PVP
it is weird then why they are trying to make that in DRK with TBN.. it doesn't make sense

[Kalaam]

PvP is very different from PvE, there you can designs jobs very differently. You can't have a tank trading HP for damage (they kinda did in the past with Blood Price giving you MP for damage taken, so purposefully getting hit by AoE became an issue) and even for DPS jobs it'd be an issue.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

PvP is very different from PvE, there you can designs jobs very differently. You can't have a tank trading HP for damage (they kinda did in the past with Blood Price giving you MP for damage taken, so purposefully getting hit by AoE became an issue) and even for DPS jobs it'd be an issue.

You absolutely can design a tank around HP spending. Getting really tired of this myth because it really shows how shallow some here are with design knowledge.

Fundamentally, just like PvP DRK, a tank with HP spending as a mechanic needs proportional amounts of sustain, either through healing potency or lifesteal. To make HP spending not go completely out of hand, you need to cap it in some way other than just HP (other resources, CD, procs) so you can't just tell your healer to dump everything on you to max your damage, the design goal is self-sufficient HP spending. Here some ideas for sustain:

• Lifesteal buff that on average will give you about 1.3x - 1.5x the HP needed for a spender + some leeway for defensive purposes (short CD, short duration)
• Dreadspikes effect where you gain 1.5x - 2.0x the HP you just took as damage (single hit timed). You gotta mitigate less but get more sustain out of it.
• Stable heal effects, either through resource actions (Blood skills having Cure potency) or timed HP recovery (Sole Survivor) for a burst of HP
• And ofc we can't forget what our dear Living Dead does.

What is important is that the sustain skills do not "just" fuel HP spending, but come with additional sustain for defensive benefit. Now here are some things you could make for HP spending:

• Think TBN, but: drains 20% of max HP, gives you 40% of max HP as shield. Moderate cooldown, only for self (lifesteal synergy)
• Dark Arts, drains 25%, enhances or morphs the next weaponskill/ability to a stronger or different version (maybe multiple stacks? Short CD gate like 15-40s)
• "Dilution", drains 10-15%, expands certain abilities to AOE that could not AOE before at lesser power (defensives too)

Of course, you could explore the avenue of MP and HP having interplay too, namely MP being usable for frequent access to lifesteal (like the short CD I mentioned) and certain HP actions granting MP for example. So you could create three systems:

HP <--> MP
HP <--> Blood
MP <--> Blood

This is just a napkin math and design concept I pulled out of the hat with minimal time investment, but I want to drive home the point that you can absolutely make HP spending a mechanic for tanks WITHOUT making the tank be a liability for having or using them.

[Tunda]

You absolutely can design a tank around HP spending. Getting really tired of this myth because it really shows how shallow some here are with design knowledge.

Fundamentally, just like PvP DRK, a tank with HP spending as a mechanic needs proportional amounts of sustain, either through healing potency or lifesteal. To make HP spending not go completely out of hand, you need to cap it in some way other than just HP (other resources, CD, procs) so you can't just tell your healer to dump everything on you to max your damage, the design goal is self-sufficient HP spending. Here some ideas for sustain:

• Lifesteal buff that on average will give you about 1.3x - 1.5x the HP needed for a spender + some leeway for defensive purposes (short CD, short duration)
• Dreadspikes effect where you gain 1.5x - 2.0x the HP you just took as damage (single hit timed). You gotta mitigate less but get more sustain out of it.
• Stable heal effects, either through resource actions (Blood skills having Cure potency) or timed HP recovery (Sole Survivor) for a burst of HP
• And ofc we can't forget what our dear Living Dead does.

What is important is that the sustain skills do not "just" fuel HP spending, but come with additional sustain for defensive benefit. Now here are some things you could make for HP spending:

• Think TBN, but: drains 20% of max HP, gives you 40% of max HP as shield. Moderate cooldown, only for self (lifesteal synergy)
• Dark Arts, drains 25%, enhances or morphs the next weaponskill/ability to a stronger or different version (maybe multiple stacks? Short CD gate like 15-40s)
• "Dilution", drains 10-15%, expands certain abilities to AOE that could not AOE before at lesser power (defensives too)

Of course, you could explore the avenue of MP and HP having interplay too, namely MP being usable for frequent access to lifesteal (like the short CD I mentioned) and certain HP actions granting MP for example. So you could create three systems:

HP <--> MP
HP <--> Blood
MP <--> Blood

This is just a napkin math and design concept I pulled out of the hat with minimal time investment, but I want to drive home the point that you can absolutely make HP spending a mechanic for tanks WITHOUT making the tank be a liability for having or using them.

I agree with you,

I have been playing RPG CO-OP games and I understand this can be exist but..

developers can't balance such a system without blowing the game

developers play the safe side so they don't want to anger small portion of players

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I agree with you,

I have been playing RPG CO-OP games and I understand this can be exist but..

developers can't balance such a system without blowing the game

developers play the safe side so they don't want to anger small portion of players

You are right, but then again we also don't know if they can and they never tried.

I am open for them to try and make genuinely cool designs, even if it needs additional patches to fix certain rough things. But if we/they just stick to what is already known and tried, we will forever be stuck with current job design, which is too much on the side of "safe" and bland.

And I highly encourage players in general to give more than "one single chance or revert instantly" for endorsing it.

[Tunda]

You are right, but then again we also don't know if they can and they never tried.

I am open for them to try and make genuinely cool designs, even if it needs additional patches to fix certain rough things. But if we/they just stick to what is already known and tried, we will forever be stuck with current job design, which is too much on the side of "safe" and bland.

And I highly encourage players in general to give more than "one single chance or revert instantly" for endorsing it.

there are have good attempt with PvP jobs I hope that they are making a case study and taking feedback to redesign PvE jobs

they started to dumb down jobs in ShB , after the success of ShB I think developers thought that the game success because of job simplicity, but it is obvious that the story is the reason why the expansion was a success.

since then they are keep the job design of shadowbringers the same

and now we got no engaging story no engaging jobs..

[Diabolika]

I just would like an opportunity to sit down with Yoship, look into his eyes and ask:

"What Dark Knight did to you, Yoshida-san? Why do you hate it so much?"

[Sazuzaki]

You absolutely can design a tank around HP spending. Getting really tired of this myth because it really shows how shallow some here are with design knowledge

Finally someone said it. XIV players are so dismissive of any kind of unique idea if it proposes any sort of jank.

No gimmicks and only damage is so lame.

[Kalaam]

I mean it'd be cool, but it'd likely be a pain to balance so it doesn't end up very squishy as a tank.

[Derio]

You dont need it though. The problem is SE goes against its own philosophy. They want jobs to be easier to play and for everyone. While DRK rotation is very simple, perhaps the simplest out of the tanks. In dungeon content it takes the most skill to play successfully. IN DUNGEON content, the majority of content in the game DRK has to press more buttons to achieve what many of the other tanks can achieve with 1.

We have seen sustain for DRK in pvp. With old skills we lost like soul survivor. The fact that salt and darkness provides a regen in pvp and not pve is a crime. Abyssal drain should be split from Carve and Spit, and cost 3k mana and be tied to the dark arts effect to where when TBN breaks you can get a free edge, flood, or abyssal drain.

There are so many simple ways to fix DRK. But they only have 5 devs who actually work on the jobs so if the job can clear content it really isnt an issue.