Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Magikazam]

The people in Ultima Thule are entirely physical beings

Ea are stated to be non-corporeal beings.

The people in Living Memory are projections of stored memories from a computer

And the Omnicron are a 100% robotic lifeform that has a computer serving as a brain.

They're about as alive as a boss's summoned adds.

Again, you can't have it both way, If Endless aren't alive, Omnicron aren't alive. Both are computer. Again, I agree by real world logic that the Endless aren't alive, but it not my fault if Computer are living being in lore.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Ea are stated to be non-corporeal beings.

The Ea are composed of pure aether, while still being affected by some physical stimuli (they can interact with objects, or be attacked with entirely mundane weapons, as shown with the rogue Ea that act as enemy mobs around the settlement). They're like elemental sprites with sentience.

And the Omnicron are a 100% robotic lifeform that has a computer serving as a brain.

Again, you can't have it both way, If Endless aren't alive, Omnicron aren't alive. Both are computer. Again, I agree by real world logic that the Endless aren't alive, but it not my fault if Coomputer are living being in lore.

The Omicrons were living beings who voluntarily uploaded their collective consciousness into machines. Then they got stuck in a rut of conquest and destruction until they were destroyed. They don't re-develop sentience until they're influenced by dynamis. So I would argue that they weren't really alive until the Endsinger meddled with them.

Which also brings up another point; the beings in Ultima Thule can exist independently of the Endsinger, while the projections in Living Memory fade out when their leynodes are shut down. A handful linger on for unfinished business, but they too disappear as soon as it's completed. They're automata.

[Magikazam]

So I would argue that they weren't really alive until the Endsinger meddled with them.

So you would consider Omega as non-alive, since he was separated from the other Omnicron b4 Endsinger meddled with them? He does have desires as shown at the end of his raids and in the alternate future we prevented in SHB.

[TheMightyMollusk]

So you would consider Omega as non-alive, since he was separated from the other Omnicron b4 Endsinger meddled with them? He does have desires as shown at the end of his raids and in the alternate future we prevented in SHB.

We're also shown via Alpha that a being can gain desires and even a soul, given time and a chance to change. Alpha and Omega aren't bound to an overriding mind preventing them from doing so, like the Endless.

[Magikazam]

We're also shown via Alpha that a being can gain desires and even a soul, given time and a chance to change. Alpha and Omega aren't bound to an overriding mind preventing them from doing so, like the Endless.

But some Endless are shown to have Desire too, even desire to die/turn the thing off and rebels, so clearly being bound don't change that. We can't tell if it the same case for the souls too.

[Galvuu]

The Ea are composed of pure aether, while still being affected by some physical stimuli (they can interact with objects, or be attacked with entirely mundane weapons, as shown with the rogue Ea that act as enemy mobs around the settlement). They're like elemental sprites with sentience.

Isn't all matter in Etheirys made of aether? I don't think this is a meaningful criteria.
You go over this in your later posts, but gaining sapience/self-awareness/a soul is something that can just happen at any point in XIV.

I definitely feel like there are a lot of implications to explore with the Endless and the nature of consciousness and life in XIV, but it's as I said in another thread- we're not given enough information, and both the story and characters basically don't explore this at all.
I think this topic is very interesting and worthy of thought, but Dawntrail brushes it aside in a shallow, infantile way.
The writers neither thought of this nor care, so all this nuance, thought experiments and philosophizing is ultimately consigned to the forums. Old XIV might explore this, but I feel that post-EW XIV just brushes these topics aside... the story basically doesn't even pose any of these questions though they're heavily implied with what's presented to us.

snip.

I don't want to veer into a "death of the author" tirade, but this type of argument from scripture has nothing to do with what most people are discussing.
Patch 7.1 could come out and tell me that all the beast tribes aren't really alive/conscious and, by necessity of the plot, killing them all off would be ok, and I'd still question this, especially in the face of what's been portrayed before. Even if that's what the writer thinks is true and intended to be transmitted, it's not what their work actually portrays in practice when viewed by most people (I think the author didn't put thought into anything and just made a cheap copy of Amaurot with AI instead of Ancients, honestly).
I'm not even definitely on the camp that the Endless are alive- I don't know what qualifies as "being alive" or what consciousness is, in XIV or irl- but that's why it's a subject of discussion. It honestly feels unnatural that the scions, scholars and brilliant people who are known to be curious, don't spend any time considering this.
It's like we ran into some alien machine that seems sapient/creative/conscious/self-aware and we don't wonder if it's alive or not, if it's like us or not.
For the purpose of the plot, it doesn't matter because the Source was under an existential threat and they had to be destroyed, but that doesn't immediately imply that they were alive or not, or what does it means to be alive. The game glosses this over with a lot of levity.
This rings hollow especially after Shadowbringers, where this is explored in detail with the duality of the Ancients compared to the Sundered souls, and a bit more in EW with the phantasms in the Ultima Thule, Omega and Alpha- which is what many people are drawing comparisons to.

[AddictedToWitches]

I don't want to veer into a "death of the author" tirade, but this type of argument from scripture has nothing to do with what most people are discussing.
Patch 7.1 could come out and tell me that all the beast tribes aren't really alive/conscious and, by necessity of the plot, killing them all off would be ok, and I'd still question this, especially in the face of what's been portrayed before. Even if that's what the writer thinks is true and intended to be transmitted, it's not what their work actually portrays in practice when viewed by most people (I think the author didn't put thought into anything and just made a cheap copy of Amaurot with AI instead of Ancients, honestly).
I'm not even definitely on the camp that the Endless are alive- I don't know what qualifies as "being alive" or what consciousness is, in XIV or irl- but that's why it's a subject of discussion. It honestly feels unnatural that the scions, scholars and brilliant people who are known to be curious, don't spend any time considering this.
It's like we ran into some alien machine that seems sapient/creative/conscious/self-aware and we don't wonder if it's alive or not, if it's like us or not.
For the purpose of the plot, it doesn't matter because the Source was under an existential threat and they had to be destroyed, but that doesn't immediately imply that they were alive or not, or what does it means to be alive. The game glosses this over with a lot of levity.
This rings hollow especially after Shadowbringers, where this is explored in detail with the duality of the Ancients compared to the Sundered souls, and a bit more in EW with the phantasms in the Ultima Thule, Omega and Alpha- which is what many people are drawing comparisons to.

So your argument is despite it making sense in the way it was written. . . you don't like it and think it's still unethical.
I mean, you can dislike the writing sure but this is next level cope.

[Galvuu]

So your argument is despite it making sense in the way it was written. . . you don't like it and think it's still unethical.
I mean, you can dislike the writing sure but this is next level cope.

I'll use very small words in a simple analogy so you understand.
You write a picture book. In chapter one, you show all these cute farm animals living with farmer Joe, and explain they have feelings and all life is precious. Farmer Joe makes nice pens and stables for all the animals and, in doing so, he comes to understand they have feelings and their lives are precious and they're happy together.
In chapter seven, there's a flood that threatens the farm. So he needs to build a dam, but realizes that the waters are inhabited by a bunch of fish and some beavers. He has no choice but to build the dam or his farm will be destroyed. Sure. But the chapter then goes "they're just fish and beavers anyway, their existence has no worth and is totally different from the animals from chapter 1, so it's totally fine to destroy them".
See the problem? I'm not saying if the fish are equatable to the animals or Joe or not- I don't pretend to have this answer. But it's dissonant to state "fish/beavers = worthless" and "farm animals = precious".
Yes, you need to build the dam to save yourself, but is there an additional element of tragedy here? That's what people are discussing, and noticing how incongruent is with the past work presented.

I don't think it's unethical to destroy the Endless to save the Source either. Did you read where I said "the WoL and Scions were justified in destroying the Endless to protect the Source"?
But ty for illustrating my point, it's all just "next level cope" and whatnot.

[AddictedToWitches]

Snip[/I]"?
But ty for illustrating my point, it's all just "next level cope" and whatnot.

Bo the endless are literally ghosts, they are not living creatures, this is such a stupid analogy to make my man.
Read the MSQ dude, READ. You are told this multiple times. These are facsimiles of people, memories, ghosts. They are long dead, and Sphene's living memory was barely sustainable. Sphene was killing people in order to preserve what were essentially advanced AI chatbots based on dead people. Everyone hammers home multiple times that it's fucked up that they are continuing to live like this, and not even all of the endless either, just a few at a time and the algorithm specifically plans out meetings of people who knew each other. It's a hollow existence. You are ushering on the dead. You are letting go. That's the point. The lights go out in living memory because you need to learn to let go. You need to teach Sphene to let go. This is all foreshadowed in the Yok Huy segment, where it's hammered in that even when people are long dead, they live on through the memories of those close to them. As long as they aren't forgotten, they will never truly die. So keeping them in a hollow endless dream is madness.
And before you start with me again, need I remind you that this almost PERFECTLY mirrors Emet and the Ascians as well. We defied the Ascians because we are protecting all of our people, despite knowing the Ascians' plans to revive their people. We defy Sphene because we are protecting our people, the only difference is instead of Sphene actively reviving her people, she's parading around hollow memories of them, not even the real living beings.
Earlier people mentioned "Well why not genocide the Omicrons?" The Omicrons are a dead race, what few exist in Ultima Thule are merely just existing, and posing no threat to basically anyone.
Also very very epic argument on your part belittling my intelligence, that certainly helped your argument and didn't entirely destroy any remaining respect I might have had for you.

[AlysCamoa]

Bo the endless are literally ghosts, they are not living creatures, this is such a stupid analogy to make my man.
Read the MSQ dude, READ. You are told this multiple times. These are facsimiles of people, memories, ghosts. They are long dead, and Sphene's living memory was barely sustainable. Sphene was killing people in order to preserve what were essentially advanced AI chatbots based on dead people. Everyone hammers home multiple times that it's fucked up that they are continuing to live like this, and not even all of the endless either, just a few at a time and the algorithm specifically plans out meetings of people who knew each other. It's a hollow existence. You are ushering on the dead. You are letting go. That's the point. The lights go out in living memory because you need to learn to let go. You need to teach Sphene to let go. This is all foreshadowed in the Yok Huy segment, where it's hammered in that even when people are long dead, they live on through the memories of those close to them. As long as they aren't forgotten, they will never truly die. So keeping them in a hollow endless dream is madness.
And before you start with me again, need I remind you that this almost PERFECTLY mirrors Emet and the Ascians as well. We defied the Ascians because we are protecting all of our people, despite knowing the Ascians' plans to revive their people. We defy Sphene because we are protecting our people, the only difference is instead of Sphene actively reviving her people, she's parading around hollow memories of them, not even the real living beings.
Earlier people mentioned "Well why not genocide the Omicrons?" The Omicrons are a dead race, what few exist in Ultima Thule are merely just existing, and posing no threat to basically anyone.
Also very very epic argument on your part belittling my intelligence, that certainly helped your argument and didn't entirely destroy any remaining respect I might have had for you.

It’s funny that you call other people speed-readers while ignoring the game’s lore yourself. Classic.
Suggestion for you: go read the Unending Codex entry on souls that got added this very patch.
Also, consider whether Cahciua telling us something- immediately after requesting we do a horrific action that would never otherwise be considered- means her words are objective truth in-universe, or her own biased outlook.

Unrelated to you, I had a real good laugh reading a reply that says Endless don’t respond to stimuli. That’s a good one, gamers. Almost as good as ‘they’re copies’ or ‘they’re chatGPT’.