The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ

[rinzukodas]

Here to add my support as well (from Reddit).

Hi, I'm just here to chime in my agreement with you on this and how upset I am about how the execution of this turned out. I've been working on an essay to try to articulate my own feelings about this, and I think you've nailed very eloquently a lot of my same feelings. It really grieves me that this has happened.

Dawntrail's MSQ rings so, so hollow. It sucks. There's so much about it that *could have* been good that I'm holding myself back from writing too long of a comment and just turning it into another draft of my essay in the process. Like others are saying, you can see how this is an Ishikawa outline and how Werlyt Guy didn't understand even how to color within those lines.

Character writing *is* FFXIV's strength and it's something that Werlyt Guy in particular has never understood--he rarely, if ever, actually gets to any unique sense of character interiority. It felt so awful to see and know that my wariness when he was announced as co-writer was justified. I was *glad* that my favorite characters (Thancred, Urianger, Estinien) were barely in MSQ because I didn't trust MSQ to handle them--and if I, a deranged fanfic writer who can and will delve into granular details about my favorites in order to pull out further material for closer characterization in my own writing, am glad about that, there's a problem. That the moment with G'raha on the gondola ride was *so* good and then quickly glossed over to get back to the action made me want to stop playing DT MSQ and instead go back and replay Shadowbringers and Endwalker is also not great.

At the least, the side content has been really enjoyable and up to par quality-wise. But I think it says a lot that I and friends who intend to play but aren't going to get to it soon have seen way more fanart on social media for the Wachumeqimeqi deliveries than anything from MSQ, versus Shadowbringers and Endwalker where artists were inspired and put out a lot of breathtaking MSQ-related pieces for like, 6 months after each expac's release.

I really hope they take stock of how people are critiquing this outside of the bad-faith criticisms, because this expac's execution level was unacceptable quality-wise compared to FFXIV's previous unique strengths. I am concerned about the game's future if the current writer continues to hold this level of responsibility and influence over MSQ.

[Keumjo]

Here to add my support as well (from Reddit).
That the moment with G'raha on the gondola ride was *so* good and then quickly glossed over to get back to the action made me want to stop playing DT MSQ and instead go back and replay Shadowbringers and Endwalker is also not great.

I agree that this moment was good, and maybe because it was the only moment like this it seems better, but I was still annoyed at this scene because it's not a conversation. G'raha is talking AT us. Multiple time he asks us a question and the camera pans to our face and we say nothing. This whole expansion is people talking at us and us staring blankly.

I'm replaying ShB on an alt and man, it's so nice that when people address me and I actually have a chance to say something. Even if it doesn't alter the future, at least I can be involved in the conversation. We are rarely involved in any conversation we are in in DT, or at least that's how it feels. We're just there to tell whoever is sad that they are doing great.

[chizLemons]

I agree that this moment was good, and maybe because it was the only moment like this it seems better, but I was still annoyed at this scene because it's not a conversation. G'raha is talking AT us. Multiple time he asks us a question and the camera pans to our face and we say nothing. This whole expansion is people talking at us and us staring blankly.

I'm replaying ShB on an alt and man, it's so nice that when people address me and I actually have a chance to say something. Even if it doesn't alter the future, at least I can be involved in the conversation. We are rarely involved in any conversation we are in in DT, or at least that's how it feels. We're just there to tell whoever is sad that they are doing great.

That is so true. It was good when you look at it by itself, but it was very short. If we had a choice of what to say and different answers on our perspective, it would make it more interesting, as it is the first (and only!) time the game actually asks us, the player, to reflect on what is happening. None of the characters go much deeper into it, either. We needed more on that.

I was also annoyed at the scene because one good scene among a lot of bad ones isn't enough to make the whole thing better all of a sudden. It was even hard to get into it...as soon as it's over everyone goes back to their cardboard cutout versions.

Shadowbringers was so good...the more I compare and rewatch cutscenes, the sadder I get with how things are right now.

[summoningbell]

I agree with the criticisms being discussed in this thread, and I hope it gets boosted enough for the dev team to see. I'd like to add my own two cents about Krile in particular.

She was heavily marketed as part of this expac, and a main thrust of this story is her desire to learn about her grandfather's fate and subsequently her origins. But in practice, she was largely relegated to a cheerful companion, and the importance of the search to her only shows when the plot says it’s worldbuilding exposition time.

The shock of being from another reflection gets glossed over with "ehehe... I was shocked too when I first heard it!" We don't get to see the emotional upheaval coming from that kind of revelation, especially knowing she could have family out there. Where's her desperation? Her struggle?

I was definitely frustrated that Erenville's dialogue for half the final area is freaking "..." but Krile's emotional journey was also left in the gutter. I was told how much this search meant to her, but never shown in a way that got me invested in it as well. So when we actually met her parents, my reaction was more "Oh. Well yeah of course I guess" than anything. I kept getting emotional whiplash because the story was signaling I should feel somber about this emotional reunion, but then silly music played, and G'raha did a bit, so I was supposed to feel lighthearted? And then somber again? From a technical writing standpoint, it makes sense that they'd want to introduce some levity here as a break from the somberness so far, but because of the execution, I couldn't go with the flow of emotions the story wanted me to.

I noted the callback to the themes of Iq Braxx' food and sharing it with others, a scene where Krile was also more prominently featured. In a textbook, this is good writing, reaffirming your themes by using it in a different context later on in the story. But the lack of build-up and jarring emotional signals gave it as much story satisfaction as noting a moment of fanservice.

So of course, when Krile was exchanging tearful goodbyes with her parents, I wasn’t feeling it. I just met them, I wasn’t given the chance to be invested in Krile, and even when they mentioned her continuing their legacy, I was baffled as to what that legacy actually is. The Milalla heritage? Their crossdimensional tech? Their love for her?

In a way, my entire criticism of the expac's writing is that lack of build up. Like OP said, the lack of character interiority damages a plot designed to rely on characters and themes. The outline of the story is wonderfully Ishikawa, you can see her signature thematic reflections throughout it. But whoever tried to stitch them together not only failed in that aspect, but it feels like they also entirely missed the point of them.

I could also get into how much whoever wrote this expac doesn't seem to understand what the word "legacy" means but that's a whole different essay teehee

[aTanpopo]

I agree with the criticisms being discussed in this thread, and I hope it gets boosted enough for the dev team to see. I'd like to add my own two cents about Krile in particular.

She was heavily marketed as part of this expac, and a main thrust of this story is her desire to learn about her grandfather's fate and subsequently her origins. But in practice, she was largely relegated to a cheerful companion, and the importance of the search to her only shows when the plot says it’s worldbuilding exposition time.

The shock of being from another reflection gets glossed over with "ehehe... I was shocked too when I first heard it!" We don't get to see the emotional upheaval coming from that kind of revelation, especially knowing she could have family out there. Where's her desperation? Her struggle?

I was definitely frustrated that Erenville's dialogue for half the final area is freaking "..." but Krile's emotional journey was also left in the gutter. I was told how much this search meant to her, but never shown in a way that got me invested in it as well. So when we actually met her parents, my reaction was more "Oh. Well yeah of course I guess" than anything. I kept getting emotional whiplash because the story was signaling I should feel somber about this emotional reunion, but then silly music played, and G'raha did a bit, so I was supposed to feel lighthearted? And then somber again? From a technical writing standpoint, it makes sense that they'd want to introduce some levity here as a break from the somberness so far, but because of the execution, I couldn't go with the flow of emotions the story wanted me to.

I noted the callback to the themes of Iq Braxx' food and sharing it with others, a scene where Krile was also more prominently featured. In a textbook, this is good writing, reaffirming your themes by using it in a different context later on in the story. But the lack of build-up and jarring emotional signals gave it as much story satisfaction as noting a moment of fanservice.

So of course, when Krile was exchanging tearful goodbyes with her parents, I wasn’t feeling it. I just met them, I wasn’t given the chance to be invested in Krile, and even when they mentioned her continuing their legacy, I was baffled as to what that legacy actually is. The Milalla heritage? Their crossdimensional tech? Their love for her?

In a way, my entire criticism of the expac's writing is that lack of build up. Like OP said, the lack of character interiority damages a plot designed to rely on characters and themes. The outline of the story is wonderfully Ishikawa, you can see her signature thematic reflections throughout it. But whoever tried to stitch them together not only failed in that aspect, but it feels like they also entirely missed the point of them.

Gotta agree with you, the lack of buildup/emotional reactions for storylines is very frustrating after coming from previous expansions where there are moments that are written so well. Like you said- the shell is there but its just executed so poorly.

I did get emotional with Krile and Erenville's scenes in living memory, but the more I think back on it the more I feel its because I built up the stories in my head, the game didn't really do that much to give me some solid fuel to make the moments impactful. Honestly I don't think I've had that happen in game before- if I'm emotionally impacted by a scene it's been because it was well written. I haven't had to come out thinking to myself "well, I guess the game never explicitly told me that why x was feeling this way, so I guess I have to remind myself this is a headcannon..." which is disappointing. Even just looking back at stuff from 6.55 is jarring- the everyone had so much more personality and, from what I can see from the credits at least, its the same writing staff who worked on both (a friend pointed out to me that 6.55 was probably written after most of 7.0 was already done, which is even more baffling).

At least with Erenville there were some hints/nuggets of info sprinkled through the MSQ that made my brain cook enough to make me genuinely cry by the end. I'm realising more and more how Krile got next to nothing and the only reason my eyes got a bit wet at the end of her area in living memory was the thought of having to just delete your family (whether they are actually "real" or not in this sense) when they're standing right there is pretty brutal. She really got done dirty, and i'm not even sure what I would hope for in the future of the MSQ to remedy this cause her arc is now technically finished. I even spent the start of the year doing Eureka to prepare for a good healthy dinner of Krile lore, but there wasn't anything to show for it (maybe because I haven't done BA yet? Hopefully someone who has can say if that lead to anything in their playthrough).

[chizLemons]

(...) Even just looking back at stuff from 6.55 is jarring- the everyone had so much more personality(...)

Did you really think so?
Ever since 6.2 I few like the characters have been all out of character for a long time now.

The main thing I notice is that either the writer reduced the character to one single trait at a time, or they just speak like "the Scion" described by OP.

Zero during her story, although she seems less annoying than Wuk Lamat, does the hat thing repeatedly, just like WL talks about peace. They both are one-note characters that barely learn anything and keep repeating the same mistakes and questions and acting the same way.

Y'shtola, the writer knows she is supposed to be smart. He seems to struggle writing characters actually being smart, so every solution she presented during the whole story were things she did offscreen. She talked to Cid offscreen and then already had the device we needed to take to the First. She talked to G'raha offscreen and got instructions on how to use the tower...

In 6.55, G'raha for some reason is saying "hear, feel think", like it randomly happens during Dawntrail as well. Him offering to stay behind so Krile could go is completely out of character as well, because didn't we just promise to take him to a new adventure? Didn't he always get excited to go somewhere new?
If only the game had given us a reason of why it's so important for him to stay and take care of things, then it wouldn't feel so bad. But in Dawntrail, we only got him saying "I took care of the most pressing matters". What pressing matters? What was so important that G'RAHA TIA didn't flinch at the thought of not going on an adventure with the Warrior of Light?!

Krile didn't act any less different than she does during the whole DT MSQ. It's been a while since she last teased someone or acted with more conviction than calmy saying "I want to learn about my past".

The twins...appear out of nowhere and say nothing.

The one that seemed to have personality in 6.55 was Wuk Lamat. And it felt fresh and fun because we didn't know her yet, so the idea was that "oh ok there's more to find out about her! She is cheerful and extroverted, but seems very naive as well." and...we saw the exact same thing during the MSQ. Even worse because of the peace and smiles repeated dialogue.

The one thing 6.55 did better was Wuk Lamat and Erenville talking while they were eating, which wasn't very long but it was cute. And we could've had more of their friendship in Dawntrail, but considering how much time we spend with them, they barely talk. Sometimes it felt like they didn't even know eachother well...

The same writing problems of Dawntrail were starting to show as early as 6.2 for me. Maybe we didn't notice them as much because they were shorter stories, or we were expecting less because they were "just patches", hoping the expansion would be better...but they were there.

[aTanpopo]

In 6.55, G'raha for some reason is saying "hear, feel think", like it randomly happens during Dawntrail as well. Him offering to stay behind so Krile could go is completely out of character as well, because didn't we just promise to take him to a new adventure? Didn't he always get excited to go somewhere new?
If only the game had given us a reason of why it's so important for him to stay and take care of things, then it wouldn't feel so bad. But in Dawntrail, we only got him saying "I took care of the most pressing matters". What pressing matters? What was so important that G'RAHA TIA didn't flinch at the thought of not going on an adventure with the Warrior of Light?!

Krile didn't act any less different than she does during the whole DT MSQ. It's been a while since she last teased someone or acted with more conviction than calmy saying "I want to learn about my past".

The twins...appear out of nowhere and say nothing.

The one that seemed to have personality in 6.55 was Wuk Lamat. And it felt fresh and fun because we didn't know her yet, so the idea was that "oh ok there's more to find out about her! She is cheerful and extroverted, but seems very naive as well." and...we saw the exact same thing during the MSQ. Even worse because of the peace and smiles repeated dialogue.

The one thing 6.55 did better was Wuk Lamat and Erenville talking while they were eating, which wasn't very long but it was cute. And we could've had more of their friendship in Dawntrail, but considering how much time we spend with them, they barely talk. Sometimes it felt like they didn't even know eachother well...

The same writing problems of Dawntrail were starting to show as early as 6.2 for me. Maybe we didn't notice them as much because they were shorter stories, or we were expecting less because they were "just patches", hoping the expansion would be better...but they were there.

The "hear feel think" thing wasn't just G'raha, I'm pretty sure Thancred said it at some part too (when talking with koana iirc). I think it was more of a way of trying to just reference back to hydaelyn for the players, but I agree it can feel a bit out of place to hear it from people without much of a connection.

I didn't feel it was out of character for G'raha to offer to stay behind. As much as he wants to go on an adventure with you, this opportunity for Krile to follow her Grandfather's footsteps and learn about his journey in Tural is more important. Krile is a friend of his that he grew up with- her Grandfather and The Students are practically his adoptive family. He has plenty of time in the future to go on those adventures with you- this could be Krile's only chance to do this.

While I can agree that other scions have been reduced to being a bit one-note lately (the twins only caring about Garlemald, Y'shotla being Y'shotla), 6.55 felt like there was a bit more chemistry between the group and it felt like that was missing in 7.0.

Wuk Lamat had personality, but the way dialogue and character acting in 6.55 was done made her feel more than just the "shonen protagonist, i will be the next hokage dawnservant" we get in the 7.0 MSQ. She acts in a way that isn't necessarily fitting for a princess, which Erenville brings up directly saying could make her, and by association him as well, look bad (i think this is conveyed a bit better in the japanese voice lines though). Come 7.0, people don't ever really comment on that anymore. It could be because those in Tural are used to her behaviour, but no one ever really tells her to be more professional even when she's the representative for an entire nation. She has the same sense of faux confidence we get in 7.0, but the way its shown in 6.55 was way more subtle. After the duty fight with the big bird she is visibly shaking, but still trying to act like some perfect warrior, which was a nice way of introducing that aspect of her character but come 7.0 she is endlessly confidant in combat and instead is trying to hide she gets motion sick. The trait of being inexperienced in combat would have been more effective given her eventually becoming the Vow of Resolve, but even when facing Valigarmanda, a creature that had a reputation of killing so many people, she's fine.

Also yeah the lack of interaction between her and Erenville was very disappointing, I'm quietly hoping they can bring some of it back in post-MSQ but I don't want do get my hopes up too high. When you first meet Wuk Lamat and she is talking about how much she's heard about you and all these incredible feats you've done for the world, while Erenville looks pretty mortified you are all finding out he's been singing your praises like a fanboy and has to do damage control, I thought to myself "hell yeah, I'm looking forward to more of this" but then they barely have any interactions and we learn nothing more about their friendship. Shame.

[Iximaz]

I didn't feel it was out of character for G'raha to offer to stay behind. As much as he wants to go on an adventure with you, this opportunity for Krile to follow her Grandfather's footsteps and learn about his journey in Tural is more important. Krile is a friend of his that he grew up with- her Grandfather and The Students are practically his adoptive family. He has plenty of time in the future to go on those adventures with you- this could be Krile's only chance to do this.

I made mention elsewhere in this thread, but the complete lack of acknowledgement of G'raha and Krile's relationship in an expansion that loves its themes of found family is just downright insulting. I was sad to leave G'raha behind, but if it meant we would finally get more characterisation of Krile (and maybe a touching reunion when he inevitably joined us in Tural... hah...) I happily waved goodbye to him and set off for Tural.

And we got... nothing. Krile was given so little attention she might as well have been standing in the corner for how much she mattered to the plot.

Not pressing Gulool Ja Ja for information on her grandfather made sense in the moment, but not whenever she met other people who knew her grandfather! She was content to just smile and nod and continue on her merry way—and when answers about her past were finally dropped into her lap through no effort on her part, she found out about it offscreen. We get none of the emotional fallout of her discovering the truth that she's from a different shard.

She and G'raha also barely acknowledge each other. When she meets her parents, you would think that'd be the perfect moment for her to mention they were raised together. Instead, she introduces him as her colleague, before turning and addressing him as Raha to his face. It's like the writers don't even know why Krile is allowed to call him that. His eating the ice cream as a way to break the ice is the most familiar they've ever acted with each other, and the whole moment was SO viscerally uncomfortable I was recoiling in my seat.

(And speaking of Krile's parents, she's SO unphased and downright cheerful about the whole situation it comes off as utterly bizarre, but I think I'm about to reach the character limit and my beef with how clumsily they handled that could be an essay on its own.)

[chizLemons]

The "hear feel think" thing wasn't just G'raha, I'm pretty sure Thancred said it at some part too (when talking with koana iirc)

Yeah, I meant the "hear, feel, think" was randomly placed by many characters, not just G'raha. It's weird and out of character for all of them, and serves no narrative purpose other than "they said the thing", no matter who is saying.

I didn't feel it was out of character for G'raha to offer to stay behind. As much as he wants to go on an adventure with you, this opportunity for Krile to follow her Grandfather's footsteps and learn about his journey in Tural is more important. Krile is a friend of his that he grew up with- her Grandfather and The Students are practically his adoptive family. He has plenty of time in the future to go on those adventures with you- this could be Krile's only chance to do this.

I think it was out of character, because WHY does he have to stay behind so she could go? Why couldn't they both go? What was so important that he had to stay behind to take care of, that they couldn't go together? Wouldn't he think of another option other than immediately offering to stay behind?! No one ever thinks of solutions so everyone gets to go, she nevers tries to protest like "there's no need!". At least give me A GOOD REASON, what are you two working on (by yourselves? No one else can do it?!) that's so important?! Not even Alisaie says anything, and she used to protest against him staying behind and not being a part of things. Remember that Alisaie was in the same room? I don't think she ever says anything. We also don't get even an option to react. Meanwhile, in DT, when it's decided that Alisaie will stay behind (because Y'shtola had to convince G'raha to go after he offered to stay behind, AGAIN) we at least get a dialogue option. Still one of the worst written scenes for the Scions, but at least there's that.

After the reactions and how the scene when he arrives in Tural go, it just confirmed that it was just yet another poor excuse from this writer to split the group, like he constantly does during the entire MSQ.
KRILE is the one calls him back "because of his knowledge"...so you mean he could be here anyway? Didn't he have to stay behind for whatever? No? Oh, okay...
We also don't see anything that hints at him being interested in going, or when he arrives in Tullyolal, never says anything about being happy to be there. Krile never says anything or even thank you for him staying behind for her. They just talk like business partners, he talks about Ojika taking care of things while he's here, and that's it. Where is their friendship, then?! I never saw it, and we had so many opportunities for that.

And also, the promise of going on an adventure was never mentioned again, like we all forgot about it. In Endwalker, he said how our promises always kept us together, now he doesn't even mention promising anything.

[chizLemons]

Not pressing Gulool Ja Ja for information on her grandfather made sense in the moment, but not whenever she met other people who knew her grandfather! She was content to just smile and nod and continue on her merry way—and when answers about her past were finally dropped into her lap through no effort on her part, she found out about it offscreen. We get none of the emotional fallout of her discovering the truth that she's from a different shard.

She and G'raha also barely acknowledge each other. When she meets her parents, you would think that'd be the perfect moment for her to mention they were raised together. Instead, she introduces him as her colleague, before turning and addressing him as Raha to his face. It's like the writers don't even know why Krile is allowed to call him that. His eating the ice cream as a way to break the ice is the most familiar they've ever acted with each other, and the whole moment was SO viscerally uncomfortable I was recoiling in my seat.

(And speaking of Krile's parents, she's SO unphased and downright cheerful about the whole situation it comes off as utterly bizarre, but I think I'm about to reach the character limit and my beef with how clumsily they handled that could be an essay on its own.)

They handled Krile so badly. She never got any development at all! It's like the writers just used her as a tool to get to lala lore at the end.
The amount of times in the story, specially Krile, ask someone for information, for them to just say "I can't tell you right now" is so pointless. Why even write it there, then?! It also happened way too often for things to be solved offscreen and we just hear about it later...while spending way too much time on things that just don't matter, and no time at all in developing the characters.

I feel like they didn't even know what Krile's personality was, so they just didn't write any. Even when she met her parents, we don't see them talking. She gets awkward, then we get the AWFUL, horrible ice cream scene...and then her parents say "it's the happiest day of their lives". What did they even talk about? Why couldn't we hear it? Why couldn't G'raha share something about her, and we all learn about her past, her found family and friends? They immediately go to talking about lore.