The healer issue? I really dunno what to put here.

[gllt]

No I just want Haukke Manor to be fun

[Supersnow845]

As yes, "Let's argue semantic numbers because I don't want to refute the point it happens" excuse. Everyone knows it happened quite often, and everyone knows it'll happen more often if healer DPS checks get increased and made more complex. Yeah, everyone is expected to contribute to the DPS, my point is healer should be the least expected, and focus on healing and keeping people alive. Stop pretending people are stupid and don't see what ya'll want. You want ego stroking and gatekeeping on logs. This isn't the first game I've played where people used the "We're bored" excuse, so they could convince the developers to make ways they can grandstand.

You obviously don’t know what we want if that’s your belief in what we want

People argue for more DPS OPTIONS (not higher output more options. Absolutely nobody is asking healers to do DPS damage, anything between where healers are now and tank damage I guess is on the table but I’d also be fine taking a a DPS nerf if my rotation was made more interesting) for 2 reasons

-the slow GCD and methodical rhythm of 14’s combat means whack a mole healing isn’t really viable in this game so you naturally will spend more time DPS’ing
-the devs are terrified of healers being a “fail point” for the party so they are unlikely to meaningfully up healing requirements (which is something we all want), in the absence of the good solution (upping healing) the next best solution to at least make the job not braindead boring is upping damage complexity

Nobody wants the healers fixed to stroke ego on logs, people want the healers fixed because they are terribly designed

[Saya8008]

So I had a couple of questions revolving around the FFXIV Healer Strike thing I saw, what was it all about? What do healers really want?

I mean I mained SGE through EW and ended up really liking it but admittedly it is a unique healer from what I have seen, is there something wrong with the other healers I am missing?

They want everything and they want it NOW! - also they don't want anything because change is bad.

[gllt]

They want everything and they want it NOW! - also they don't want anything because change is bad.

No I just want leveling roulette to be fun

[Raven2014]

People argue for more DPS OPTIONS (not higher output more options. Absolutely nobody is asking healers to do DPS damage, anything between where healers are now and tank damage I guess is on the table but I’d also be fine taking a a DPS nerf if my rotation was made more interesting) for 2 reasons

Please, you're being dishonest and you know it. If the rotation is made more complex but give the same output (or heaven forbid, even less damage), the whole community gonna riot, probably far more than it is now. Maybe YOU personally fine with it, but if you truly believe this is the case for other healers than you truly lack the understand of the very community you're a part of. No players will ever accept it, that's why the balancing games is just a cat and mouse games between complexity and reward:

- That's why DRG had to go through a rework, it was more complex/busy comparing to other melee yet not better damage.

- That's why PLD had to be rework again and again, because its rotation requires 100+ IQ to perfect yet barely keep up with other tanks who had much more simple rotation.

- That's why up until now you never hear people complain BLM doing "too much damage", because everyone acknowledge anyone with the skill to maximize BLM's play deserve to have big number.

That's why balancing classes mechanic is always just a difficult quagmire because it's not just simply a number game, but a fine line to walk between work and reward.


Even if they don't say it, everyone, and I mean literally everyone will expect if the rotation become complex it will have to come with better reward. Anyone claiming otherwise either sitting at the edge of the outlier, or just straight up lying, period. The reason that doesn't need to be said because it's an unwritten rule that every competent developers know by heart.

[gllt]

Please, you're being dishonest and you know it. If the rotation is made more complex but give the same output, the whole community gonna riot, probably far more than it is now. Maybe YOU personally fine with it, but if you truly believe this is the case for other healers than you truly lack the understand of the very community you're a part of. No players will ever accept it, that's why the balancing games is just a cat and mouse games between complexity and reward:

- That's why DRG had to go through a rework, it was more complex/busy comparing to other melee yet not better damage.

- That's why PLD had to be rework again and again, because its rotation requires 100+ IQ to perfect yet barely keep up with other tanks who had much more simple rotation.

- That's why up until now you rarely hear people talk about BLM, because its complexity to master came with appropriate reward.

Even if they don't say it, everyone, and I mean literally everyone will expect if the rotation become complex it will have to come with better reward. Anyone claiming otherwise either sitting at the edge of the outlier, or just straight up lying, period. The reason that doesn't need to be said because it's an unwritten rule that every competent developers know by heart.

You can make a more complex rotation that offers a higher reward that's optional and let people clear with ease using the non optimal rotation and then if they complain they just have brain worms and you can't fix that if I've learned anything from a decade of competitive gaming. And I really don't want to cater to brain worms.

[IDontPetLalas]

As yes, "Let's argue semantic numbers because I don't want to refute the point it happens" excuse. Everyone knows it happened quite often, and everyone knows it'll happen more often if healer DPS checks get increased and made more complex. Yeah, everyone is expected to contribute to the DPS, my point is healer should be the least expected, and focus on healing and keeping people alive. Stop pretending people are stupid and don't see what ya'll want. You want ego stroking and gatekeeping on logs. This isn't the first game I've played where people used the "We're bored" excuse, so they could convince the developers to make ways they can grandstand.

OK, so you can't . You need to dodge with some baseless claims that refer to some vague "everyone" that you can't prove in any way, and worse, don't follow from years of feedback. Well that was an easy enough argument to disprove

[Supersnow845]

Please, you're being dishonest and you know it. If the rotation is made more complex but give the same output, the whole community gonna riot, probably far more than it is now. Maybe YOU personally fine with it, but if you truly believe this is the case for other healers than you truly lack the understand of the very community you're a part of. No players will ever accept it, that's why the balancing games is just a cat and mouse games between complexity and reward:

- That's why DRG had to go through a rework, it was more complex/busy comparing to other melee yet not better damage.

- That's why PLD had to be rework again and again, because its rotation requires 100+ IQ to perfect yet barely keep up with other tanks who had much more simple rotation.

- That's why up until now you rarely hear people talk about BLM, because its complexity to master came with appropriate reward.

Even if they don't say it, everyone, and I mean literally everyone will expect if the rotation become complex it will have to come with better reward. Anyone claiming otherwise either sitting at the edge of the outlier, or just straight up lying, period. The reason that doesn't need to be said because it's an unwritten rule that every competent developers know by heart.

The healer balance has literally existed in this form for almost as long as the game has existed, SCH and AST have always been giagabrained compared to WHM (and now SGE) and yet they only see even a little DPS net benefit at the absolute top end percentiles. You can be a rank 1 AST playing at rank 1 level but if your party is bad you are being out DPS’ed by a mid tier WHM. The devs have always said that complexity doesn’t play into damage numbers (the example people always point to in BLM is rezz discrepancy). And if they were balancing on complexity the current tank vs healer complexity is already massively out of line, tanks do a rotation 50* the complexity of a healer rotation to do 15% more damage

We also had the balance in ShB where healers out DPS’ed tanks despite their complexity differences and nobody really minded, the supports just don’t work the same as DPS, I’ll also point to WAR doing more damage than PLD or DRK despite being in contention with SMN WHM and SGE for easiest job in the game

Your examples of BLM is rezz and mobility not complexity, PLD wasn’t a desired change that was just square refusing to balance non burst jobs, DRG hasn’t even changed with that rework so I don’t know why you bring it up, it’s still a relatively complex low but consistent damage job rather than a NIN style burst job and it’s a popular job

[Einnecy]

I miss playing SCH during SB when we had two (maybe even three?) DoTs which we could spread to the entire mob pack and had the choice between Eos and Selene even if the latter was considered mostly useless. Spamming 1 and 2 (with slight variations depending on the job) is hardly enjoyable.

[Kes13a]

I read through the whole thread, and I have to agree with this right here. I played AST up to 54, and SCH up until Level 60, but I had enough. It was constant whining about my "low DPS", even though nobody died in raids / Ex / dungeons. I'm a healer, not a DPS. My job is to make sure you stay alive, not do high damage. That should be at the level of "Just try to do bare minimum, not your department." To me this strike is nothing more than a lot of healers wanting to flex on DPS numbers and gatekeep, so they can brag percentile numbers along with tanks and DPS.

Adding to more strict and needed heals is fine, but forget the DPS rotation. I can't tell you how many times a raid or ex wipe happened because healers "Sorry, I got focused on my DPS". You know, when their whole damn job was to keep everyone alive. WHM with Cleric Stance comes to mind the most, what a nightmare.

I would be unable to care less about dps numbers, or about some percentile numbers. yes, I would prefer to heal.. heal what exactly? please, do I have to hope for incompetent party members? sure, healng is my job, so why do monks and warriors need an aoe heal with a regen? why are other non healer jobs getting healing abiliities? hmm?