Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

[Carin-Eri]

I think what isn't hitting many of you, and it never really does, is that most of this writing team does not think or care nearly as much about the story as players do. They will read your post, not care, and msq will be more of the same.

This should have been obvious since the patches when they completely failed to set up a premise for even visiting Tural outside "we have nothing better to do".

The thing is, people cling to a handful of very high moments the team has pulled off, mostly in 6.0 and 5.0, and then overrate them as they can do no wrong, when the writers egularly do wrong every expansion.

That's not to say the OP is a waste of time or anything. It's just worth considering when things in the story don't make sense, when lore is screwed, etc it's because the writing team simply doesn't care. Seems obvious. They think combat and graphics will satisfy you enough to coast on vibes

Actually forced to agree.

The first thing most think of when anyone mentions Shadowbringers is the (admittedly absolutely epic) "This is our future. Our Story" moment. The elements of the story most think of when Endwalker is being discussed is either 'The Walk' or Zenos breaking reality, scoffing at the apocalypse and then basically telling us we were better than whatever the hell that thing (Endsinger) was.

That means that the chaff gets ignored. Shadowbringers was fantastic. On the other hand it gave us the catastrophic bore that was Ran'jit who kicked everyone's ass effortlessly, and sort-of beat the WoL, the first few times we fought him. Fell down a damn hole but inexplicably survived, was defeated by Thancred but magics himself away somehow. None of which is really explained. Its like they wanted another Zenos but didn't bother explaining why this one was an OP powerhouse. And then reappears from no-where without explanation to fight, and be defeated by, the WoL. That should've been Thancred's win.

And Endwalker - well, the issues with Endwalker's story have been discussed in numerous threads over several years.

But those negatives are all but forgotten because of the aforementioned moments of awesome. Unfortunately, Dawntrail doesn't really have one of those moments per-se. The final boss might have been one if not for the limelight being redirected to Wuk Lamat. I might have said that the 'Vrtra to the Rescue' cutscene might qualify.... but since it was an Endwalker character, and they played Endwalker music, I think that cutscene relies too heavily on nostalgia.

[Isala]

But those negatives are all but forgotten because of the aforementioned moments of awesome. Unfortunately, Dawntrail doesn't really have one of those moments per-se. The final boss might have been one if not for the limelight being redirected to Wuk Lamat. I might have said that the 'Vrtra to the Rescue' cutscene might qualify.... but since it was an Endwalker character, and they played Endwalker music, I think that cutscene relies too heavily on nostalgia.

The entire expansion tries to play the Nostalgia card. "Remember the Vanu?! Remember the Goblins?! Remember the Great Serpent of Ronka?! Remember all these things and moments from past expansions that you loved?!" Hell, there is an actual NPC called Nostalgia...

See, the problem with reminding us of the enjoyable moments that came before, is that it also highlights that there are almost no moments like that in DT that don't have to milk nostalgia. All it managed to do is go "Hey! Remember when the game DIDN'T suck ass? Too bad. Here's more Wuk Lamat."

[Raven2014]

The entire expansion tries to play the Nostalgia card. "Remember the Vanu?! Remember the Goblins?! Remember the Great Serpent of Ronka?! Remember all these things and moments from past expansions that you loved?!" Hell, there is an actual NPC called Nostalgia...

See, the problem with reminding us of the enjoyable moments that came before, is that it also highlights that there are almost no moments like that in DT that don't have to milk nostalgia. All it managed to do is go "Hey! Remember when the game DIDN'T suck ass? Too bad. Here's more Wuk Lamat."

That, and also some very obvious attempt at compensating, or at least that's what I think. Y'stohla have a pretty big simp club, but never once it feels they're trying to force her character in your face. Whether with Wuk it could be the writer know the conceived a shallow characters so they try to compensate with a make believe attempt, hoping to ... idk - "trick" the players into buying it? Would it explain why every other NPCs suddenly lose all their personality to join Wuk's cheerleading squad.

[Isala]

That, and also some very obvious attempt at compensating, or at least that's what I think. Y'stohla have a pretty big simp club, but never once it feels they're trying to force her character in your face. Whether with Wuk it could be the writer know the conceived a shallow characters so they try to compensate with a make believe attempt, hoping to ... idk - "trick" the players into buying it? Would it explain why every other NPCs suddenly lose all their personality to join Wuk's cheerleading squad.

There is no singular moment in the expansion that highlights Wuk's effect on every other character better than her kidnapping. As soon as she's out of focus, we see competency, we see the same characters we've grown to know and love, shining in their specific roles. Seeing Thancred, with all his espionage skills on full display was a treat. Being treated as the muscle we are, as we baited out that guy and his goons. That was great. And the VERY SECOND we untie that stupid cat, every single character in that same cutscene immediately loses 90% of their personality.

[Carin-Eri]

IDK, I feel like Shadowbringers is consistently pretty fantastic all the way through. Yeah, it's got great highs, but any lows are very minor and it's still absolutely filled with fantastic moments that aren't just "big awesome" ones. When I think of Shadowbringers, I don't just think of the epic scenes against Emet at the end, I think of the really haunting and moody opening sequence, going to the library to learn about the First and the librarian showing us those gorgeous illustrations, the beautiful music and mood of entering each zone for the first time with Ardbert's melancholy narration, all the funny and delightful moments with all the different fey creatures in Il Mheg, the beautiful scene where we watch the Night's Blessed hold a funeral, Y'shtola asking Urianger to describe the night sky, all the moments of Emet-Selch tagging along with us and the way the other characters bounce off him, Lyna falling to the ground after a battle and cursing her inability to save everyone, the Exarch leaving sandwiches for the WoL, Alisaie yelling at the other Scions that they can't promise that they'll figure out how to fix the WoL's light corruption, the scene where we talk to the shade of Hythlodaeus in Amaurot, every conversation with Ardbert... the list could go on. Point is, it's not just memories of the big epic moments blocking out a bunch of meh stuff. The whole thing is great, including - especially, even - the quieter moments. (And all the stuff with Ran'jit you mentioned doesn't really bother me... like, I guess I can see what you're saying, but I've just never had an issue with the way that character was done.)

Endwalker I think definitely does have some proper lows, but it still has a lot of very good quieter moments in it as well IMO, not just big moments.

Absolutely agree with all points. I'm simply saying that whilst it was excellent - arguably the best expansion we've had - it wasn't absolutely perfect. But that's just my view, resulting from the fact that I didn't enjoy anything about Ran'jit; I maintain the opinion that he felt shoehorned into the story, was poorly explained, and remained around longer than was necessary (again - he should've been defeated by Thancred and served no purpose following that fight).

Eitherway, I also maintain my point that Dawntrail didn't really have a standout moment like both Shadowbringers and Endwalker did. As said in my earlier post, it tried to, but ruined the moment by moving the spotlight.

[BigBoom550]

-snipped-

More than that, Shadowbringers actively tried to have 'downtime' moments and delineated mini-arcs by sending you back to rest up. Dawntrail felt like it was constantly trying to one-up itself, while Shadowbringers felt like it was trying to spread the emotional highs out a little.

Characters got time to shine in their own ways, too. The Exarch was first, then you meet Alisaie and Alphinaud in their particular courses and work with them in ways that make sense given their character. Thancred you meet up with serving the role he always has- protecting Minfilia- but now there's a twist to it. Urianger's brought forward into the spotlight a little from the relatively background/secondary position he'd taken prior and allowed to show his smarts. Y'shtola has her own sort of stuff going on (She's often narratively neglected but there's... not a lot to do with her, in a lot of ways.)

In each case though, while still present, characters who'd been introduced back into the plot moved back a step or two to allow others to take position at the fore. There were times when the Exarch was the prominent character, other times the Twins or Thancred or Minfilia/Ryne. Even Emet, darling of the expac, actively moved in and out of the plot as necessary and while he moved it, he was not always on-screen hogging your attention. He introduces himself, then leaves. He arrives to discuss things from time to time. He gives you a hand when Y'shtola Flows herself again. He's a theater kid, for sure, but he knows when to exit stage right and left to give the characters- in-story- their own breathing room to interact and analyze what he's saying, and to give you as a player a *break* from him to interact with others. Even if you dislike Emet-Selch, you can't argue that he wasn't nearly as pervasive, prevalent, or all-consuming as Wuk Lamat was. Even with his grandest display in Amaurot, he gave you the space to explore and experience the city itself. He wasn't hanging over your shoulder going on and on and on, he was off with the Exarch and hence off-screen. It wasn't just showing Amaurot, but showing Amaurot as remembered by Emet, granting insight into the character without him standing there going 'I loved my people because they were friendly and polite!'.

Hell, the standout moment of Amaurot for some people basically takes place at the DMV because the story was willing to restrain itself when it needed to. Just a scene where you have a polite, earnest conversation with the shade of someone who just wants to talk for a while. That's all it was, and because the story wasn't beating you over the head with Emet's persona, it worked.

There was a willingness to let characters have their own stories and resolutions, even if in some cases- as you mentioned with Ran'jit- that ended up a bit bungled.