Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

[arstoka]

I have been ruminating on the issue regarding "player agency" that has been term often used in threads about complaints regarding the player's character, the WOL, having no agency.

I sincerely agree with the descriptions used though I may not specifically think the term "player agency" is the most appropriate choice and, in ways, I feel it can be easily misinterpreted as wanting to be the centre of attention, which is certainly isn't.

In my personal opinion, I feel that the issue is more complex and nuanced as most people understand. The issue with Dawntrail is the characterization without consideration for past practices and story events.

More or less, the player/WOL has been able to express their opinions which, in some cases, resulted in different reactions from the NPCs creating a feeling of being integrated into the world. The player, in this instance, has some control over how they can be "perceived" by the other characters without changing the status quo. This includes the game commenting on your own personal achievements, like having special dialogue with Estinien if you did the Dragoon quest line going into HW or the scene of everyone coming together to aid the WOL at the end of Endwalker based on what you have and have not completed in the game (to name a couple off the top of my head).

It's these small things that allow the player to "customize" their interactions in FFXIV and develop the "characterization" of their character as they perceive them (with limitations of course).

As the narrative goes on, the WOL is asked for their opinions on certain relevant topics or to expound upon, in brief, their own past experiences and opinions on characters. While not every choice is going to be available, one has had the opportunity to pick the closest approximation. For example, you have the ability to tell the 'Watcher' in EW who you think was 'in the right' (Emet-Selch, Venat, Hermes, no one, etc).

As shown before, multiple times over, Dawntrail throws the WOL's space for characterization out the window and it all starts with the premise and failing to take into consideration the story prior to the start of Dawntrail and it's cultural implications.

The narrative ignores the Bloody Banquet and other story events that might make someone pause when getting involved in politics. The narrative attempts to paint over the obvious story of Dawntrail with "you can go and adventure with them to find the City of Gold!" and then says, if you don't think that's a good enough reason then, as the person we just met several hours ago says, there's a tyrant looking to take the throne and they plan on trying to conquer Garlemald first if they succeed.

Boat ride aside, we are immediately tied to Wuk Lamat at the hip from the first scene in the city, where the Landsguards stop us on the docks for immigration clearance to which Wuk Lamat hand-waves the issue by declaring that the WOL and party are with them. This already creates a power imbalance forcing us along with Wuk Lamat.

Further more, the first scene in the Castle with the other Promises already lump us in with Wuk Lamat which railroads cautious WOLs into supporting a candidate for the throne. There is no way for the WOL to voice their concerns regarding the situation and is, by default, seen as supporting Wuk Lamat.

From that point on, you have exactly 1 option for interpreting the situation that is expressed by the narrative: you support Wuk Lamat.

This isn't itself a bad thing but the narrative goes out of its way to shoehorn the WOL into a cheerleader role. The WOL can hardly be seen as a mentor because they not deferred to for their expertise or life experience of which they have many. They are unable to properly call Wuk Lamat out for making stupid decisions when they are rightly warranted because the narrative is content with the fact that Wuk Lamat can do no wrong so...these moments of actually being a mentor never truly happen.

For the majority of the story, the WOL agrees with whatever Wuk Lamat says and smiles and nods like they're being held at gun point.

In contrast, the Role Quests (of which I have completed the Tank, Healer and MDPS) have you fulfill similar roles but the characters in the story recognizes you and your accomplishments, the NPCs ask for your opinion and talk to you with more respect and engagement. At the end of the day, the WOL is still assisting the Role Quest NPC in their story (to get the McGuffin back from the bad guys) but the interactions and characterization are handled much better.

The MSQ in Dawntrail so desperately wants you to love Wuk Lamat that it refuses you to be able to have a nuanced relationship with her outside of "Wuk Lamat is the best and I agree with her and all her choices!" which results in a feeling where the player has no "agency" to define their character.

[Dogempire]

I feel Koana was done dirty near the end. The guy who is thought to not be suitable because he wants to add tech to their culture is somehow not good enough to go to tech city (Soln 9, etc). While I understand they want to show Wuk Lamat's growth, growth is also knowing that your voice of reason knows more about certain subjects and consulting them or allowing them to lead.

That would have actually been amazingly interesting if Koana was forced to face what happens when you become too overreliant on technology, and his worldview was changed as a result, instead of him suddenly changing his mind during the speech to the people after Wookie Lament made him Dawnservant

Would have made his character development feel earned

[RabendaShin]

The MSQ in Dawntrail so desperately wants you to love Wuk Lamat that it refuses you to be able to have a nuanced relationship with her outside of "Wuk Lamat is the best and I agree with her and all her choices!" which results in a feeling where the player has no "agency" to define their character.

Amazingly thorough rumination and it puts the difference (and faults) in writing of Dawntrail in another light. You hit a few points I missed in my initial post on the head. Agree completely!

[Seiki_Kisaki]

The biggest pain point for me was the "tour" of Solution Nine. WoL got dragged along by the writer to watch Wuk Sue and Not-Emet flirt with each other. This was immediately followed by an "escort" mission, where Wuk Sue and Not-Emet conversed only with each other at every MANDATORY stop. There was no reason whatsoever for WoL to be there, except for the reason that the writer wanted them to be the cameraman to tell the player a story. This made it clear to me, that at that moment, I am an audience member, and the character I've been playing as since I started in Stormblood is not my avatar, but a convenient tool. This feels exactly like a Dungeon Master forcing the player to watch him roleplay a date scene between his DMPC (with massive main character syndrome) and another NPC that he plays, and the player has no choice other wise the game won't progress.

Never in my life have I ever seen a JRPG actively dissociate the player and the player character. The level of bad writing here is so far beyond comical, it's depressing. Listen, if you want to tell a story with no involvement from the audience, then save us all some time and just write a damn book.

[Villa101]

; there’s no logical reason for her to be so unnaturally optimistic and confident when she’s been essentially princess in a castle her whole life. Like, she never stops to question whether her ‘way’ is always going to be the ‘right’ way, Everyone just assumes it is and goes along with it lol. Surely self-reflection is just as important to any ruler as love for their people is? Yet we see essentially none from Wuk Lamat the entire story

Yeah she grew up rich and sheltered. Not only is the point of the story is her unlearning that her father says this outloud, but rich sheltered people in real life grow up with inflated senses of self all the time. We are lucky her high self esteem was complimenting a sound moral foundation and not sociopathithic tendencies

[Papayatar]

The biggest pain point for me was the "tour" of Solution Nine. WoL got dragged along by the writer to watch Wuk Sue and Not-Emet flirt with each other. This was immediately followed by an "escort" mission, where Wuk Sue and Not-Emet conversed only with each other at every MANDATORY stop. There was no reason whatsoever for WoL to be there, except for the reason that the writer wanted them to be the cameraman to tell the player a story. This made it clear to me, that at that moment, I am an audience member, and the character I've been playing as since I started in Stormblood is not my avatar, but a convenient tool. This feels exactly like a Dungeon Master forcing the player to watch him roleplay a date scene between his DMPC (with massive main character syndrome) and another NPC that he plays, and the player has no choice other wise the game won't progress.

Never in my life have I ever seen a JRPG actively dissociate the player and the player character. The level of bad writing here is so far beyond comical, it's depressing. Listen, if you want to tell a story with no involvement from the audience, then save us all some time and just write a damn book.

And our WoL playing cameraman happened again after 2nd trial and killing Zareel Ja, and we for whatever reason have to go on tour 2.0 with Wuk Lamat, Koana, and Gulool Ja.

And kinda sorta again, though surprsingly without Wuk Lamat shoe horned in, is when we do the capybara ride with Erenville and his Mom.

The WoL didn’t need to be there for any point other than the story saying we had to. Especial Tulliyolal Tour 2.0 which didn’t add anything different from the 1st tour other than us seeing what a “great” Auntie Wuk Lamat was to Gulool Ja.

[Isala]

Think of having to see this cutscene every time this trial comes up in roulette. They really need to change it.

I'm honestly debating just leaving every time I get that trial, and taking the penalty every time. Is it an absolutely terrible thing to do for the people there? Yes. But I see no point in being a willing participant in my own torture.

[CerusSerenade]

[B][SIZE="3"]-snip

1. Your breakdown leaves Mamook to continue to bear resentment to the rest of Tural, continue mass baby sacrifices, and continue subverting the rest of the nation.

2. There's nothing stopping Soreel Ja from still stealing the Inter-dimensional Key, Zoraal Ja from stealing the keystones, and opening the Golden City, WITHOUT Wuk Lamat and Koana, and likely with Wuk Lamat and Bakool Ja Ja dead. Therefore he keeps the cheat death device and Tural falls to ruin. The scions will be involved too late and with no information on the golden city gate, letting Sphene commence with interdimensional fusion and end the world.

3. Without participating in the rite with Wuk Lamat, we'd have no authority to learn anything about the golden city, let alone even approach given Mamook guards and hides it.

4. Eerenville would not only have to lose his mother, he wouldn't get any closure either.

You have grossly misunderstood the events of the story to spin this narrative that somehow Wuk Lamat is the cause for everything going wrong. It is entirely off base.

I'm honestly debating just leaving every time I get that trial, and taking the penalty every time. Is it an absolutely terrible thing to do for the people there? Yes. But I see no point in being a willing participant in my own torture.

You'd be doing your party a favor. No group needs a petty, bitter, and quite frankly melodramatic member in their party. You'll be quickly replaced and you're the only one you're inconveniencing.

I wonder, do you say the same thing about MSQ roulette?

[Isala]

You'd be doing your party a favor. No group needs a petty, bitter, and quite frankly melodramatic member in their party. You'll be quickly replaced and you're the only one you're inconveniencing.

I wonder, do you say the same thing about MSQ roulette?

Just replace me with that strawman you're building. Win win for both of us.

[CerusSerenade]

Just replace me with that strawman you're building. Win win for both of us.

Did you or did you not say that the final trial is "torture" and "I'm debating leaving every time I get that trial"?

I'm honestly debating just leaving every time I get that trial, and taking the penalty every time. Is it an absolutely terrible thing to do for the people there? Yes. But I see no point in being a willing participant in my own torture.

This is you, yes?

I think you shouldn't use words you don't understand.