Personal view on Dawntrail.

[Gryph0n]

So in order for this to be fair I will not be comparing it with HW to EW immediately.

First impressions were what I expected honestly. Coming out of a decade long story arc, it would be unreasonable to expect something of that caliber. I really enjoyed the first half, while the story was built up and characters explored. I somewhat lost interest in the second half of the msq after the rite of succession ended. While both halves were predictable, the second half didn't see much growth in characters as far as I noticed.

I do think DT is better than ARR, mainly because of main npc's having obvious flaws. It's been a long time since I played ARR, but none of the main good characters ever had flaws. They were the perfect representation of a "good guy". On the other hand, Wuk Lamat is very flawed, yet she grows over the course of the msq. Not to a perfect character, but one that's relatable and ready to lead a nation.

Now to the obvious, DT is NOT better than HW to EW. But it's not supposed to be. And even ARR had people who didn't like the story - a lot actually. The positive only overshadowed it because of such a successful launch to a game that was once one of the worst MMORPG's ever released.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong in their opinion if they hate the story. But it's also reasonable to expect the story to get better from this point on.

[Aulainn]

So in order for this to be fair I will not be comparing it with HW to EW immediately.

First impressions were what I expected honestly. Coming out of a decade long story arc, it would be unreasonable to expect something of that caliber. I really enjoyed the first half, while the story was built up and characters explored. I somewhat lost interest in the second half of the msq after the rite of succession ended. While both halves were predictable, the second half didn't see much growth in characters as far as I noticed.

I do think DT is better than ARR, mainly because of main npc's having obvious flaws. It's been a long time since I played ARR, but none of the main good characters ever had flaws. They were the perfect representation of a "good guy". On the other hand, Wuk Lamat is very flawed, yet she grows over the course of the msq. Not to a perfect character, but one that's relatable and ready to lead a nation.

Now to the obvious, DT is NOT better than HW to EW. But it's not supposed to be. And even ARR had people who didn't like the story - a lot actually. The positive only overshadowed it because of such a successful launch to a game that was once one of the worst MMORPG's ever released.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong in their opinion if they hate the story. But it's also reasonable to expect the story to get better from this point on.

Thancred failing to protected Minfilia who straight up dies? Alphinaud who's an insufferable brat with some grand plans that burns to the ground and eventually almost lead up to take the country with it? Whole Ul'dah being a shitshow were the rich take control, sultana is poisoned, the folks tricked and Raubahn losing an arm in a fit of rage? Yshtola who gambles on lifestream and loses her eyesight? Lyse who had some unresolved issues and was pretending to be her dead sister?

While some of these aren't flaw per say, they are failings and things that haunt them and forced them to change as people.

Edit: Also I want to add, these characters do exist and have stories pre-ARR which is a big reason some of them are portrayed the way they are.

[Gortys]

I do think DT is better than ARR, mainly because of main npc's having obvious flaws. It's been a long time since I played ARR, but none of the main good characters ever had flaws.

Forgot the Crystal Braves huh?

[KurenXIV]

So in order for this to be fair I will not be comparing it with HW to EW immediately.

Coming out of a decade long story arc, it would be unreasonable to expect something of that caliber.

The length of a previous story arc doesn't have any baring on the quality of writing of the story. What a new story start would lack is the long term pay offs that built up over a long story arc. That's expected and I don't think anyone critiquing the story is saying that is the issue.

I'm going to steal a comment from another thread about this . . . the duration of the MSQ is around the length of two seasons of Game of Thrones. Let that sink in for a moment.

Put differently, the duration of the MSQ is as long as if not longer than most standard games.

I think it's safe to assume, with that much time spent in the MSQ that it would be more than enough time to establish its settings, characters and start to plant seeds for underlying long term story elements in a satisfying way.

[Gryph0n]

Thancred failing to protected Minfilia who straight up dies? Alphinaud who's an insufferable brat with some grand plans that burns to the ground and eventually almost lead up to take the country with it? Whole Ul'dah being a shitshow were the rich take control, sultana is poisoned, the folks tricked and Raubahn losing an arm in a fit of rage? Yshtola who gambles on lifestream and loses her eyesight? Lyse who had some unresolved issues and was pretending to be her dead sister?

While some of these aren't flaw per say, they are failings and things that haunt them and forced them to change as people.

Alphinaud is the only character flaw, simply because of his ego. But he grew from it, and it took more than one expansion for that growth to finish.

Other than that, I completely agree with you. However, Wuk Lamat does have failings. And I think it would be fair to wait for the msq updates before completely condemning her. I do think it could have been taken better if a certain incident was used as a trigger for that growth though, rather than "didn't want to interfere".

@KurenXIV - That's a fair point. I did feel there was a lot of filler in the msq that could have either been removed or replaced with something more substantial like character building.

[KurenXIV]

And I think it would be fair to wait for the msq updates before completely condemning her.".

Fair? She had the pre-DT quest introduction and then a full MSQ which she is front and center and the main character for 99% of the story . . .

She achieves her goal by not growing in any way shape or form. There's nothing they can add to the MSQ that will change that.

Edit: that's not to say they couldn't somehow maybe pull a Zenos where a better writer makes her awesome or make more sense but I don't think the MSQ arc she had can be salvaged short of a full retcon/change of the MSQ story.

[Gryph0n]

Fair? She had the pre-DT quest introduction and then a full MSQ which she is front and center and the main character for 99% of the story . . .

She achieves her goal by not growing in any way shape or form. There's nothing they can add to the MSQ that will change that.

How would you have structured it in a way that it resonated with the community? And by saying there's nothing they can add to the msq to change that, don't you think you're saying that no matter how good the next expansion is, that her character should just be left out entirely? (Mainly in regards to growth opportunities).

[Gortys]

Edit: that's not to say they couldn't somehow maybe pull a Zenos where a better writer makes her awesome or make more sense but I don't think the MSQ arc she had can be salvaged short of a full retcon/change of the MSQ story.

Funny you wrote this since I kind of view her as similar to Zenos. He lived for one thing that he couldn't stop talking about and she lives for one thing she also can't stop talking about. Just because her goal is positive doesn't mean she's a well developed character.

[Gryph0n]

Funny you wrote this since I kind of view her as similar to Zenos. He lived for one thing that he couldn't stop talking about and she lives for one thing she also can't stop talking about. Just because her goal is positive doesn't mean she's a well developed character.

I agree, her talk of peace borders on "family" from another good but annoying character. I'm definitely not saying she is the best, but I'm just going to keep an open mind for the updates and hope there's some growth there.

[KurenXIV]

How would you have structured it in a way that it resonated with the community? And by saying there's nothing they can add to the msq to change that, don't you think you're saying that no matter how good the next expansion is, that her character should just be left out entirely? (Mainly in regards to growth opportunities).

A fair question!

The core issue is Wuk Lamat has no adversity thrown her way, or at least meaningful adversity which causes her to struggle and grow.

At her core Wuk Lamat is a lover of peace. She believes by talking things out everyone can come to an understanding and everyone can be happy and live peacefully. She's very naive. We learn in questing with her she really doesn't know anything about her people because she doesn't really venture outside the main city. She also seems to be presented as a capable warrior who is not necessarily the strongest or surest but she has some talent.

This is actually a great foundation for character growth. The set up is absolutely there to make a compelling story.

If we are working with the general structure of the MSQ as it is, the easiest change(s) to make is that each area and it's people have conflict which challenge her world view and who she is.

Perhaps there's a location where talking it out and eating simply doesn't solve the problem. Maybe we try and tell her, with our experience, how not everything can be talked out simply in a single conversation. Maybe it takes a long series of efforts to make peace a reality. Maybe peace is simply not possible with talk and conflict is inevitable. Perhaps even after hearing this she still tries to talk it through . . . and maybe people she convinces to believe her way of doing things get hurt as a result.

She would have to then reflect on her world view and wrestle with the notion that the world isn't black and white, the world isn't simple, and sometimes just understanding each other doesn't resolve conflict. In addition, it'd make her have to grow and be more careful as her words have impact and if she leads as a naive child she can get people hurt or killed.

Perhaps we adjust the scene with her father fighting her brother. Maybe she jumps in and doesn't listen to her father. She believes so much in herself and her way of peace that she will fight but talk sense into her brother. At which point she's in the way, and perhaps to prevent her from dying her father protects her. Again making her have to come to terms with her actions having consequences.

I'm just spitballing here but her foundation is absolutely there, its just the situations shes placed in all resolve so easily or without consequences of her actions that she isn't given a chance to grow.

In terms of her being left out, I think at this point they need to let her be gone for some time before re-introducing her and maybe trying to give her actual growth so she can be accepted by the player base.