90% of Dawntrail MSQ could be a side quest

[Kaurhz]

I would put it above ARR and Stormblood, but not above the others.

I'm sorry, but over half of the quests in ARR, even after pruning constitute as side-quest material.

I didn't expect massive things from this story, but I simply think they had the wrong angle for how to approach the story. The whole succession story should have been going on, on the side, and then adventures should have been the focal point, even if they were essentially self-contained adventures for each zone. Shaaloani was a good example. Then the end of the story should have been resolving the whole succession story, rather than it being focal for half of the story.

I don't think the problem is that they don't know how to write a female leader. The problem is just that it was incredibly aggressive with pushing the character into every single facet of the story, and we as the players should never been in positions where we are supporting or installing people into a position of power. In this regard, "Less is more", so to speak. Like, I probably wouldn't have found it as bad had Wuk Lamat taken to the bench a bit for the latter half, but they just had to continue, and continue and continue to push for no reason other than "Can't we just live in peace" - This for me just completely overshadowed what little 'character development' Wuk got.

[Malthir]

I would put it above ARR and Stormblood, but not above the others.

I'm sorry, but over half of the quests in ARR, even after pruning constitute as side-quest material.

I didn't expect massive things from this story, but I simply think they had the wrong angle for how to approach the story. The whole succession story should have been going on, on the side, and then adventures should have been the focal point, even if they were essentially self-contained adventures for each zone. Shaaloani was a good example. Then the end of the story should have been resolving the whole succession story, rather than it being focal for half of the story.

I don't think the problem is that they don't know how to write a female leader. The problem is just that it was incredibly aggressive with pushing the character into every single facet of the story, and we as the players should never been in positions where we are supporting or installing people into a position of power. In this regard, "Less is more", so to speak. Like, I probably wouldn't have found it as bad had Wuk Lamat taken to the bench a bit for the latter half, but they just had to continue, and continue and continue to push for no reason other than "Can't we just live in peace" - This for me just completely overshadowed what little 'character development' Wuk got.

I would actually put this below ARR personally. The pacing is pretty much as bad as ARR but at least the content and character dev is there in ARR, this has none of that. When it comes to world building ARR is better, dungeon designs, ARR is better. We got more twice as many dungeons with interesting layouts and self contained stories in ARR. This expac has shiny new graphics which are a meh for most people, the tiny tiny little bits of foliage that slightly bend as you run past at 80mph so can't even really notice them, but you mount wobbles so woooooo I guess.

[Kaurhz]

I would actually put this below ARR personally. The pacing is pretty much as bad as ARR but at least the content and character dev is there in ARR, this has none of that. When it comes to world building ARR is better, dungeon designs, ARR is better. We got more twice as many dungeons with interesting layouts and self contained stories in ARR. This expac has shiny new graphics which are a meh for most people, the tiny tiny little bits of foliage that slightly bend as you run past at 80mph so can't even really notice them, but you mount wobbles so woooooo I guess.

Personally, going to have to disagree on the dungeons there. There were more varied layouts but the number of times people actually elected to engage with these layouts was very miniscule. Most people had always been more concerned with pulling from wall-to-wall to actually bother engaging with the layouts. Literally the entire dungeon layout is as a result of how people interacted with those dungeons. Even with the appeal of getting Manor Varnish, which would effectively be near 80K Gil if you looted it, even though it meant killing 2-3 extra mobs. Same thing for a lot of the other dungeon loot which required engaging with optional rooms.

Dungeon boss design is at an all time high compared to previous expansions, at least they are in my opinion anyway.

Post-ARR was one of the most drab experiences humanly imaginable, both before and after the pruning of a good 70 quests associated with it. ARR is literally a wall for a lot of people, with many people actually either quitting the game or deciding to spend money to skip the stories. How we got there I understand, but it wasn't exactly a pretty experience by any stretch of the imagination. But if I am speaking to my experience at the time of doing it, I quit the game 2-3 times, and then slowly whittling away at the post-story quests just ended up putting me to sleep to the degree where skipping all of the cutscenes was an appealing decision

Still inclined to put it above ARR, both in the past and of the present (Neither of them are good, frankly. But ARR is just a different kind of torment. But hey, opinions and all..

[Malthir]

Personally, going to have to disagree on the dungeons there. There were more varied layouts but the number of times people actually elected to engage with these layouts was very miniscule. Most people had always been more concerned with pulling from wall-to-wall to actually bother engaging with the layouts. Literally the entire dungeon layout is as a result of how people interacted with those dungeons.

Dungeon boss design is at an all time high compared to previous expansions, at least they are in my opinion anyway.

Post-ARR was one of the most drab experiences humanly imaginable, both before and after the pruning of a good 70 quests associated with it. ARR is literally a wall for a lot of people, with many people actually either quitting the game or deciding to spend money to skip the stories. How we got there I understand, but it wasn't exactly a pretty experience by any stretch of the imagination. But if I am speaking to my experience at the time of doing it, I quit the game 2-3 times, and then slowly whittling away at the post-story quests just ended up putting me to sleep to the degree where skipping all of the cutscenes was an appealing decision

Still inclined to put it above ARR, both in the past and of the present (Neither of them are good, frankly. But ARR is just a different kind of torment. But hey, opinions and all..

Really, most people didn't have the gear to be able to wall to wall in ARR, normally you took 1 or 2 packs at a time. Tanking was way way harder, TP was a thing so DPS had to actually pay attention, DPS had to not over agro etc. Also the dungeons were substantially less formulaic. Boss fights involved more environmental and player action and tanking paths based mech instead of dance dance revolution on a square platform. Don't get me wrong ARR had plenty of issues from the story being long winded and convoluted at times, Jobs were very bare bones they didn't have mechanics they had a playstyle which in a way was good but I can understand why they changed it. However for dungeons, party content and world building it was probably one of the best expacs.

[KisaiTenshi]

I would put it above ARR and Stormblood, but not above the others.

I'm sorry, but over half of the quests in ARR, even after pruning constitute as side-quest material.

Because a lot of "ARR" was version 1.0 and Version 2.0 content, and people didn't really recognize it as two games worth of content. When they nerfed the opening stories for Ul'dah/Thancred they basically had to reintroduce half of it through flashback stills in Shadowbringers. No such thing happened with Y'shtola/Limsa or Yda+Papalymo/Gridania. The story merge point in 1.0 was done differently where as in 2.0 the twins basically get introduced at level 15 for no apparent relevant reason until you get to like level 30.

2.0 basically sat on what was established in 1.0 but "everyone forgot". Somehow. But not entirely. Clearly the landscape was decimated and everyone recalls the calamity happening but nothing after that. Where did "you" go doing that time if you were a legacy character. What happened to the primals that were released during the 1.0 opening (which we now know seen to have been implied to have been retconned as being "the first" before the flood of light.)

1.0 and 2.0 was never "neatly tied up", but Shadowbringers+Endwalker sufficiently explained everything from 1.0 in a way that was satisfying. Then DT comes along and starts redefining how souls and aether work and now it's like ... "um..."

Wuk Lamat's entire story didn't feel too exciting. It felt like we were just in the backseat. It also feels like Kriles story was thrown in the backseat because she basically has no story agency throughout the expansion.