The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ

[Aurumis]

I didn't skip any of the story but I may have skimmed through some parts out of boredom, so I would like to ask: did Krile even matter at all this expansion?

I don't remember her doing anything significant in the first half, then we discover she came from the city of gold and the one thing that leads into is her earring, which isn't used at all until the VERY END and even then doesn't immediately open the door since the baby is the one that has to do it. Did she do anything significant at all in any part of expansion? I mean, we meet her parents for 30 minutes and we learn a bit about another dead shard, but all that information is on terminals so even if we didn't have Krile we'd get that information anyway.

Nope, she didn't do nothing. Her fans probably are dissapointed by this since it seemed she should have more importance, but nope, Wuk Lamat, Wuk Lamat, Wuk Lamat.

[Loggos]

Erenville was the only one who reacted somewhat naturally to what was going on, but it felt like the game wanted to dismiss or chide his reaction, rather than actually explore it and as soon as it's done he is just fine again? That's not how it works.

Thank you, I'm glad I'm not alone because it felt the same way to me.

I really didn't like how they treated Erenville in the last zone.

A lot of this also has to do with how they wrote Cahciua. Imo they overdid the "cheerful, cheeky freespirit who is right and the grumpy counterpart who is wrong" trope. I know the intention was that she/the game's narrative wanted to show how Erenville needs to get out of his shell more and not prevent himself from enjoying things/life. But the imminent death of his mother was really the worst time to do that.
It made Cahciua come off as selfish and self-centered, even though that’s not how I want to see her.

I know they love each other dearly but there were some hints that Cahciua wasn't always the best mother it seems. Such as her frequently going on adventures for prolonged periods of time and Erenville always crying when she left or her not telling him what his name means and he has to learn it from somebody else.

She felt like this kind of "can get away with anything, you just have to love them" character because she was deciding everything that was happening (in terms of their interaction) in that zone.
When during their final scene Erenville finally stood his ground and said exactly that, that she was deciding everything by herself and then just leaving him again (which indicates she regularly acts like this) I was happy because I thought finally his perspective gets some room. I didn't want them to fight or end on bad terms but I felt Erenville deserved to speak his mind. Then they could have made up. But when the story proceeded to treat him yet again as being (so obviously) wrong, I was really frustrated.

Throughout the whole zone Cahciua talked about her own dreams, how she wanted to see more of the world and so on. But at no point did she express that part of her dream also includes Erenville. Again I know she loves him but it just felt so jarring that the writers had her talk about herself all the time, what she wants and how that little adventure in the last zone made her happy, in front of her grieving son who literally told us he is being torn apart. It was peak insensitive. And she just went on and on about her stuff cheerfully. It felt so incredibly tone deaf.

Even worse, when she suggested to go on that little adventure and Erenville rightfully called her out how she couldn’t possibly ask him to do that, the story didn't follow along with his feelings. Instead it had Cahciua react like a mom whose moody teenage son is having a fit and she has to convince him to do something he normally likes. Erenville was framed exactly like said teenage son by standing there with arms crossed and saying "I suppose" after his mom asks him if he wouldn't like it if she bought him his favourite milkshake. There he is, opening up about how he just can't do this and the story is like "Come on, Erenville. You'll see this adventure is really good for you, you just don't really understand your own feelings like your mom does".

She does dictate everything in that moment even if the story wants to frame it as beneficial and Erenville as the one who "just doesn't get it". It has this patronising vibe of "yes your feelings are valid but if you just try it you'll see you like it! Don't be so dour, get out of your shell!"

So when they said their good-bye (which in itself was very touching and genuine) and the story had Erenville literally shout "Yes you are right mother!! I'll fulfill your dream!" with a very strong emotional subtext of "How could I be so blind? Of course you are right like you always are!" I just thought...but what about your dream, Erenville? And I get it, the implication is supposed to be that this is his true dream after all but the way they made him realise it by making it about Cahciua again, felt so diminishing of everything he felt and wanted prior to that moment.

I know this sounds like I hate Cahciua but I don't. Like I said, I know she loves him and I think it would have been really interesting if she was not a perfect mom. If they were family that cares deeply about each other despite their flaws and the story would have allowed this nuance to exist between them, resolving their tensions during her last moments.

But they wrote their relationship as totally one-sided, with Erenville as the one who literally doesn't get himself at all and needs his mom to tell him exactly where to go and what to do to figure out life ("go find the golden city/go to sharlayan", "go on this small adventure with me before I die", "go follow in my footsteps") and with Cahciua as the one who knows exactly what he needs, even when he thinks he doesn't, and whose plans always end up being just The Right Thing for him.

-----

Some thoughts about their first scene meeting in Living Memory because I don’t know where else to fit it:

I already disliked the beginning, when Erenville and Cahicua met for the first time "in flesh" again. For Cahciua it had been 30 years. For Erenville it was less but he came to the zone fully aware of his mother being dead.

The way Cahciua barely concerned herself with Erenville, let alone his emotional state, was staggering. They made her way too cheerful and had her focus almost exclusively on how to defeat Sphene, while she barely acknowledged the feelings of her son – whom she, again, hadn't seen in 30 years and who had just learned she was dead. Every concern of his was brushed off. This was even more annoying because before you go to the golden city, if you talk to Erenville, he’ll say that he wants to give her a piece of his mind after learning she’s dead. He never gets the chance to speak his mind though.
I would have expected at least a few earnest words of sadness, an awkward uncomfortable tension, some bittersweet expressions of how happy she is to see him again, or some heaviness/regret in her demeanor if she was trying to hide her true feelings behind a cheerful mask. But she seemed genuinely content. She controlled the emotional vibe of the whole encounter.

Especially annoying was that, when meeting Cahciua for the first time, they suddenly shifted the tone of the conversation and had Erenville do the "shaking my head/shrug" emote, which felt like they were having a casual conversation and he was just annoyed instead of him being full of deep, conflicting emotions upon seeing her. It felt so out of place.

And yeah, as some other people pointed out the rest of the group threw out some alibi “Oh Erenville”s but most of the time the issue wasn’t much of a concern for them either. So they just went through the zone, dragging Erenville and his inconvenient inner crisis along.

(Sorry, I know I'm yapping but Erenville was the only thing I even remotely cared about by the end of the MSQ so I have strong feelings on that whole storyline.)

[Zaniel]

One thing that really blew my mind was the treatment of Bakool Ja Ja, When we finally hear his backstory (in a 1 minute exposition instead of across the MSQ) it becomes clear that he has a fully legit reason to want to win at all costs. He should have been motivated out the wazoo but he should have been absolutely DESPERATE to win. Show him acting desperate (not cartoonish Austin Powers evil) and doing bad things in order to win. Show his disgust as his own society. Instead we got a cackling half-wit who spent most of his time self-sabotaging instead of being laser focused on his goal.

[Tethan]

snip

Yes, I think you are hitting the nail on the head. Whatever support Erenville gets from the rest of the cast felt very token and stiff and the whole thing came off like the narrative itself was uncomfortable with its own implications and Erenville was a spoilsport for bringing it up. And I remember thinking "well, no wonder he's a bit withdrawn considering he apparently grew up around people with no interest in respecting his feelings or boundaries".

For much of the Dawntrail MSQ I found myself saying (jokingly) "shut up, Krile, no one cares!" But the final zone was very "shut up, Erenville, no one cares!"

[Loggos]

Yes, I think you are hitting the nail on the head. Whatever support Erenville gets from the rest of the cast felt very token and stiff and the whole thing came off like the narrative itself was uncomfortable with its own implications and Erenville was a spoilsport for bringing it up. And I remember thinking "well, no wonder he's a bit withdrawn considering he apparently grew up around people with no interest in respecting his feelings or boundaries".

For much of the Dawntrail MSQ I found myself saying (jokingly) "shut up, Krile, no one cares!" But the final zone was very "shut up, Erenville, no one cares!"

Yeah I completely agree. I think they wanted to use him as a narrative tool for some "sweet" tragedy and sad tear jerker moments but then realised that they are undermining their whole "they are not real" premise if they actually take his perspective seriously. After all, how can Erenville be right in his feelings regarding Cahciua, the endless, when it's not his "real" mother. So they solved it in a way that allows them to eat their cake and have it too: They have some big sad scenes to "spice up" their story (and give us "life lessons" about life and death) while also not having to actually feel bad for the endless, because Erenville is being "irrational" and is grieving somebody who is already gone. He needs to let go.
Like this they can have his sadness be right and wrong at the same time. Right because he is grieving somebody dying in the past, wrong because he is "projecting" (not really, but you know) that grief onto an illusion.

And yeah, I feel you re: the boundary crossing. To me it came across like that as well.

[Aerstzwyn]

It's a scene that Ishikawa would write - maybe even one she did write. It stands out from everything else so much that I cant help but wonder.

She has been sorely absent from this expansion, I feel. Scenes like this make a story feel alive and worthwhile. Getting to know the characters, seeing them evolve and giving the goings-on meaning by relating it to those very same characters, it is very important. Scenes like Urianger describing the night sky to Y'shtola. I adore that scene. It is entirely unnecessary and ephemeral, it doesn't do anything for the story... yet it accomplishes so much for the characters. Emet too is full of character and emotion. The stellar performace of the English VA makes him outstanding and by the same vein, elevates the story to new levels. This too is absent in Dawntrail. By the end I was thoroughly annoyed by Wuk Lamat. She keeps hogging the spotlight, our character is relegated to background cast. Even in the penultimate fight, where they try to recreate the Endsinger (which in itself is hamfisted as heck), she comes in, gives us HER buff (Yes, not the WoL's Brilliant Convicition or anything, no, it is Wuk Lamats Buff to us) and we defeat the last boss. Ah, what am I saying. She defeats the last boss, of course. I dislike her so much by now, it's almost unsalvageable.

[ThorneDynasty]

You know, this is a question I've had for awhile. Is the rubber bullets a localization thing or was it close to the Japanese? Because it's so strange to have a lawless western setting and settle disputes with rubber bullets.

One of the criticism I've had with this game for a while is the gradual PG-13:fication of the story.

It feels like before the writers really got their hands dirty in showing the horrors of oppression, pulling zero punches with moments like Arenvald's, Fordola's and Yotsuyu's backstories. So why is it suddenly too much to match the, still much lighter, western tone? The sudden family friendliness was really jarring and took me out of the zone's mood immediately. It feels like another writer took over, who had not been properly briefed on the target audience of the game. Like people use real weapons in the rest of the story - Is it because they didn't want "a good guy" to be the one using lethal force that wasn't strictly in self defense? Or Tural having harsh frontier laws in part of its regions would have made their nation have just tiny bit of shade of grey, which we can't have anymore for some reason? Help me out here.

[franklinwi]

It feels like another writer took over, who had not been properly briefed on the target audience of the game.

This is markedly less pessimistic than my worry, which is that CBU3 is deliberately PG13-ifying the story in the hope of greater mass appeal, and that the Ivalice-sryle serious politics and moral grays are not coming back, because this is less an execution problem and more a strategic shift away from the preferences of the legacy audience.

[Voidmage]

One of the criticism I've had with this game for a while is the gradual PG-13:fication of the story.

It feels like before the writers really got their hands dirty in showing the horrors of oppression, pulling zero punches with moments like Arenvald's, Fordola's and Yotsuyu's backstories. So why is it suddenly too much to match the, still much lighter, western tone? The sudden family friendliness was really jarring and took me out of the zone's mood immediately. It feels like another writer took over, who had not been properly briefed on the target audience of the game. Like people use real weapons in the rest of the story - Is it because they didn't want "a good guy" to be the one using lethal force that wasn't strictly in self defense? Or Tural having harsh frontier laws in part of its regions would have made their nation have just tiny bit of shade of grey, which we can't have anymore for some reason? Help me out here.

I tend towards localisation myself because:
A
He was shooting at the weapon anyway so rubber bullets didn't make sense and I'm pretty sure the other guy did not have rubber bullets.

B
We saw bandits being killed by dinosaurs right beforehand and a massacre right aftr this scene.

It's a really strange mood swing tbh. I get it that they wanted to go for a lighter tone for the most part but this scene imo is one of the few things not the fault of the writing but of the localisation.

[Higashikata]

hopefully they course correct