Finished the MSQ - Feels bad, pushed to do evil [Spoilers inside]

[Tethan]

There is a reasonable problem with this this though -- all those people agreeing with the need for their own destruction, are written in by the devs that themselves believe they are right about their story being good, so we know they are crafted to loyally to the intent of the writers defend the indefensible. There is no independent source of fact there.

This is the Holy Book paradox by just another name, with the MSQ in the role of the Holy Book -- The Holy Book is true and good, because the Holy Book teaches us so. The way the MSQ story goes is true and good, because the way the MSQ story goes teaches us so. It is totally circular, and building an argument on that will never be able to convince someone who is already outside the circle looking at it from the outside. Our characters are inside the story nodding it along, but we players exist outside the game, and are capable of looking at it from the outside by definition.

Exactly, as I said before arguing semantics (or ethics) when the writing is this poor is a waste of time and effort. There is a time and place for this kind of discussion, but this isn't it.

The problem isn't whether or not this or that is the morally correct choice, the problem is that the story is told so poorly it causes this amount of confusion in the first place. The WoL (and friends) isn't meant to be some morally gray character, where you are never really sure if they are right or wrong in their actions. On the contrary, they are portrayed as a Paragon type of character, a true hero. That there is any doubt as to whether or not this is the correct course to take, is in itself a problem.

They mixed metaphors and gestured to some vague "what is a human" tropes while trying to portray the theme of letting go and accepting death/grief, but those are not complementary with each other. Maybe a very skilled writer could pull it off, I don't know, but they were clearly not skilled enough.

[Basteala]

It's actually a funny full circle. To protect the future of man, we have to destroy the legacy of another group of man, memories or not. We do this because we're given no other real options in the relative time crunch we're facing, and we justify it to ourselves because these Endless aren't truly alive--they're parasitic facsimiles of life and are so because they lack a soul that makes them real.

In other words, "But yes, moral relativism and all that. Case in point– I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you."

And while I don't think the WoL or their companions feel quite so nonchalant about it as Emet Selch did, the fact we were faced with similar burdens as our Ancient predecessors is poetic for me. I rather liked it.

[Lersayil]

It's actually a funny full circle. To protect the future of man, we have to destroy the legacy of another group of man, memories or not. We do this because we're given no other real options in the relative time crunch we're facing, and we justify it to ourselves because these Endless aren't truly alive--they're parasitic facsimiles of life and are so because they lack a soul that makes them real.

In other words, "But yes, moral relativism and all that. Case in point– I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you."

And while I don't think the WoL or their companions feel quite so nonchalant about it as Emet Selch did, the fact we were faced with similar burdens as our Ancient predecessors is poetic for me. I rather liked it.

I wouldn't mind if that was the result the story came to after some deeper introspection, but so far it feels like the writers either didn't even see, consider or acknowledge that parallel or even the possibility of it.

[ClayyLmao]

So I finished the msq, The story was lackluster throughout the xPac but the ending just felt evil to me, the writers try and push their point of view that life should end no matter what, that the endless are not really alive, even though we see that they are, they can hear, feel and think, express emotion, be happy and sad, the WOL just committed a mass murder and we are suppose to feel ok with that?

This has forever tainted my view of the wol, my character is now evil.

From EW where we forgave a genocidal bird girl who killed who knows how many planets to DT where we become the mass murderer yourself what up square enix?

"Erm, Listen. The citizens of this city are machines that have been implanted with the memories of dead people and they can only subsist off of eating human flesh, so if you shut down the machine that turns living people into human meat cubes you're dooming all of these machines to death. You're evil"

This isn't some grand philosophical debate. This isn't even any different from things you've done in the past. Sphene is Temu Emet, and you shutting down the machine is just you preventing Emet from completing the rejoining again. It's almost an identical situation. You're not evil for doing this. The dead have to make way for the living. Sphene's guilt over not being able to save her people doesn't mean the rest of the world has to be doomed into being fuel for her dream machine.

[Loggos]

Exactly, as I said before arguing semantics (or ethics) when the writing is this poor is a waste of time and effort. There is a time and place for this kind of discussion, but this isn't it.

The problem isn't whether or not this or that is the morally correct choice, the problem is that the story is told so poorly it causes this amount of confusion in the first place. The WoL (and friends) isn't meant to be some morally gray character, where you are never really sure if they are right or wrong in their actions. On the contrary, they are portrayed as a Paragon type of character, a true hero. That there is any doubt as to whether or not this is the correct course to take, is in itself a problem.

They mixed metaphors and gestured to some vague "what is a human" tropes while trying to portray the theme of letting go and accepting death/grief, but those are not complementary with each other. Maybe a very skilled writer could pull it off, I don't know, but they were clearly not skilled enough.

This is the reason why by the end of the MSQ I didn't even care about the story's resolution anymore and I simply and very comfortably reject whatever logical implications this should have about my WoL.

My WoLs are my characters. The story I create for them comes first.
The MSQ is a story/characterisation that others write (and superimpose) on me. Most of the time the story is good enough, so it works.
But if the story you write "for me" is so bad and absurd that it turns my characters into a parody of themselves, then I just reject it.
SE can make it canon all they want, I don't care. I won't let my WoLs' characters be dictated by some amateur writers who read the WikiHow page on philosophy.

If they can't write a proper story for my characters then they also don't deserve that I acknowledge it.
For all I care, the MSQ never happened the way it did. I'll just take the dungeons and environments and fill them with my own ideas.

[Atukanuva]

There was a reason I did this section in a Hydaelyn cosplay....

I just wished the writing had leaned more on how theres no other choice and emphasized the actual weight of what you're doing, rather than constantly trying to reassure you that they're not alive and what you're doing is totally fine .

[Kaecilius]

"Erm, Listen. The citizens of this city are machines that have been implanted with the memories of dead people and they can only subsist off of eating human flesh, so if you shut down the machine that turns living people into human meat cubes you're dooming all of these machines to death. You're evil"

This isn't some grand philosophical debate. This isn't even any different from things you've done in the past. Sphene is Temu Emet, and you shutting down the machine is just you preventing Emet from completing the rejoining again. It's almost an identical situation. You're not evil for doing this. The dead have to make way for the living. Sphene's guilt over not being able to save her people doesn't mean the rest of the world has to be doomed into being fuel for her dream machine.

The problem is that it *is* a philosophical debate. The narrative just doesn't bother with it.

It is implied that a lot of the citizens in Living Memory had no choice when it came to being uploaded to the cloud (see Namikka), it is also shown that they are living a happy existence and many of them have feelings, hopes and plans for the future.

Are they alive? Not exactly, but they have sentience and consciousness. There's a question of what being alive means that the game entirely sidesteps so we can be morally right.

The citizens of Living Memory are not to blame for the choices Sphene makes, and up until this point the system had not preyed upon any other reflection beyond the attack on Tuliyollal, and we've forgiven people that done shit much worse than that. Even Gaius is one of our best buddies.

What we did was necessary, but we never wrestled with the weight of it, because we don't consider their existence worthy of it.

[ClayyLmao]

The problem is that it *is* a philosophical debate. The narrative just doesn't bother with it.

It is implied that a lot of the citizens in Living Memory had no choice when it came to being uploaded to the cloud (see Namikka), it is also shown that they are living a happy existence and many of them have feelings, hopes and plans for the future.

Are they alive? Not exactly, but they have sentience and consciousness. There's a question of what being alive means that the game entirely sidesteps so we can be morally right.

The citizens of Living Memory are not to blame for the choices Sphene makes, and up until this point the system had not preyed upon any other reflection beyond the attack on Tuliyollal, and we've forgiven people that done shit much worse than that. Even Gaius is one of our best buddies.

What we did was necessary, but we never wrestled with the weight of it, because we don't consider their existence worthy of it.

I didn't say it wasn't a philosophical debate. It is. It's just such a simple one that there is no wrestling with it. They aren't alive. They are computer programs running the dead's memories over and over again ad infinitum. They aren't the souls of the people who died. The souls of the dead are sold to the citizens to be used to revive themselves when they die. They are purely the memories of the dead being forced to play out a happy life because the AI that contains Sphene's memories was programed to put the continuation of the simulation above all else. My WoL would happily shut down the simulation rather than go and start harvesting the souls of the billions of innocent lives in every reflection for the benefit of the tens of thousands in the simulation. It's not a debate. You either shut down the machine, or start throwing babies into the soul extracting wood chipper for Sphene.

[MatthiusAbysswalker]

Even Venat did something crazy for the greater good.

[Amenara]

They were already dead, had no problems pushing the off button to be honest.