Dawntrail's MSQ story is a disaster and waste of potential. [full spoilers]

[Eyrilona]

One thing is for sure. Even those who still insist saying Emet-Selch was an un-nuanced terrible character despite all his sympathetic traits simply because he would consider genocide as a means to enforce his ideals over ours, now have nowhere left to go -- because we just performed a genocide on another reality because we deemed their continued existence incompatible with our ideals of how existence should work. The game can sugarcoat it all it wants by throwing a few people patting us on the back and saying it's okay, I feel that was entirely NOT okay and we did not even try anything else first. Like, did we need to even completely erase them? They supposedly only used up aether while manifesting physically anyway, it really looked to me like they could have happily lived in virtual reality forever without bothering anyone. Especially after seeing the last dungeon. Our motivation was literally, "If our enemy is doing this to preserve the lives of her people, then if we kill all her people first, she won't have a reason to go through with it anymore." And then the writers forgot that was the point of that exercise and everything went ahead anyway so it wasn't even just unnecessary, it was full on meaningless.

[Malthir]

One thing is for sure. Even those who still insist saying Emet-Selch was an un-nuanced terrible character despite all his sympathetic traits simply because he would consider genocide as a means to enforce his ideals over ours, now have nowhere left to go -- because we just performed a genocide on another reality because we deemed their continued existence incompatible with our ideals of how existence should work. The game can sugarcoat it all it wants by throwing a few people patting us on the back and saying it's okay, I feel that was entirely NOT okay and we did not even try anything else first. Like, did we need to even completely erase them? They supposedly only used up aether while manifesting physically anyway, it really looked to me like they could have happily lived in virtual reality forever without bothering anyone. Especially after seeing the last dungeon. Our motivation was literally, "If our enemy is doing this to preserve the lives of her people, then if we kill all her people first, she won't have a reason to go through with it anymore." And then the writers forgot that was the point of that exercise and everything went ahead anyway so it wasn't even just unnecessary, it was full on meaningless.

I mean to be honest we didn't have much choice, their end goal is functionally burn up the souls of the living to keep the paradise of the dead going.

[Tsumdere]

I mean to be honest we didn't have much choice, their end goal is functionally burn up the souls of the living to keep the paradise of the dead going.

There wasn't even a shred of hesitation from anyone to say "well... maybe there is another way". We came in the company of Eorzea's smartest people and you're telling me that they couldn't even get together for a second to muse over it? The gang says "Sounds good. Let's kill them." It's like you're travelling with copies of Wuk Lamat who don't have a shred of thought.

Even if it ended the same way, it could have been written to seem less cruel and more tragic.

[Eyrilona]

Also.. people have mentioned the boy we left paralyzed in Solution 9 without saying anything, even though his condition was aetheric unbalance which the scions knew how to cure.

That gets worse.

In the final zone, there is even a side quest where you have to recover three medical text books about their attempts to cure aetheric unbalance, and it rubs in hard that they are talking about the same condition that we know. And then at the end of the quest, the medical professional asks our character what our take on the books was, and our only options are... 1. to remark that a lot of electrope is used, or 2. recite their own book's conclusions at them that the condition is incurable.

Like.. no option to tell them a cure was found for that in our world?

Why do you even have a side quest to explicitly bring attention to one of the story's plotholes?!

[CosmoBabylonia]

So hermanos....

I tapped out this morning in Texas after Naruto became the Hokage of Tural. I think I'm just going to pull what that 1 user in here did back in Stormblood and just log out in middle of a zone and leave.

The part that really did it for me was so there was a supposed hidden and secret backup set of the Infinity Starbursts and the very key itself. Why was it just randomly stolen? Shouldn't it be under constant guard given we were told how dangerous the Bass Pro Shop could be? They busted both of those items out in the span of 2 cinematics? The Roe that got killed off just felt like such a plot convenience event.

If it's that easy why couldn't we just do it and become the Hokage of Tural?

[Ryaze]

I agree with nearly everything. I don't feel exactly 100% with Zoraal Ja, but I can see where you're coming from. I thought his personage early on in the story was closer to Leto II, who wanted to walk the Golden Path. Do what needed to be done, as vile and atrocious as it is. Plunge the star into a constant state of war until conflict was intrinsically repulsive to the people.

That said. I also felt like Wuk Lamat had very little character development and it made zero sense why she was a worthy candidate for Dawnservant. She seemingly always had the answer and the right perspective from the get-go. Learning about cultures was always the answer to EVERY SINGLE TEST. She was never wrong. She never fucked up or caused pain or conflict because of her naivety. She was grossly reluctant to admit she had fears or faults for quite a long time, and when she finally did, she still reverted to hiding her true feelings and pretending she wasn't afraid of flying or walking alone in Solution Nine. This isn't a leader putting on a façade for her subjects to inspire them or so they don't lose hope. This is a person hiding and putting up walls with her comrades, people who crossed an ocean and left their homes to help her. She never learned.

Even Koana realized that his focus on the future was too single minded and he learned to appreciate that seemingly mundane traditions have value to a people and their culture. Koana had actual personal growth. Koana stepped down from being a candidate for Dawnservant so he could help with Wuk Lamat's trial. Koana's personal sacrifice for his aspirations to Dawnservant so he could help his sister was character growth. He sacrificed something deeply personal for the greater good. These are great qualities for a true leader. Wuk Lamat had none of this growth.

I will 100% mirror the OP's confusion, and my own revulsion. That when this story is about understanding cultures, as soon as the main characters encounter a culture with whom they disagree on core values they express their revulsion and immediately suggest to try and change a system that has been in place for hundreds of years. A core function of another culture, without understanding or educating themselves on the implications of said change, or whether the people of a foreign culture even want the change. Not to mention that this isn't even their place. Imaging visiting another country and within a day telling someone they should change a core feature of their civilization because it's different from your own.

Right now I'm in the final zone and as a player and WoL I have no agency in my response, which is legit really bothering me during the cutscene I'm paused in. If you're going to give a player choices, then let them be actual choices. I don't think it's morally correct to erase the Endless. I think it's hypocritical that Wuk Lamat and Co. are angry and have repulsion that another civilization would attack another for what is essentially a war for resources/survival, but then barely have any reluctance and quickly agree to massacre the opposing side's populace. It's apparently ok to commit genocide as long as Wuk Lamat can understand their culture and then "reject someone's beliefs". There's clearly a core difference in values and concepts of what constitutes "alive", but instead of exploring this and how we resolve differences or compromise, we're essentially at war with Alexandria in the same way Sphene is at War with Tural. This is fine in a sense. It's a fight for survival, but then just call a spade a spade. Stop this disgusting moralizing justification for mass slaughter of another people.

[arstoka]

-snip-

Thank you for this, I feel the exact same way. I'm pretty sure there have been other people who have pointed out the flaws of the whole Soul stealing to perpetuate false existences but to think that we wouldn't have considered other options and went straight to 'this is an abomination' and 'they aren't actually people' is far too close to genocide and the mindset of Emet-Selch then I'm comfortable with. Granted, I was sick to my stomach from the MSQ before that point and was largely skipping all dialogue and cutscenes but even still, it did not sit well with me.

[lolnotacat]

So hermanos....

I tapped out this morning in Texas after Naruto became the Hokage of Tural. I think I'm just going to pull what that 1 user in here did back in Stormblood and just log out in middle of a zone and leave.

The part that really did it for me was so there was a supposed hidden and secret backup set of the Infinity Starbursts and the very key itself. Why was it just randomly stolen? Shouldn't it be under constant guard given we were told how dangerous the Bass Pro Shop could be? They busted both of those items out in the span of 2 cinematics? The Roe that got killed off just felt like such a plot convenience event.

If it's that easy why couldn't we just do it and become the Hokage of Tural?

I got to the same point this morning and was just slapped with more questions than answers. Why did Madara Ja Ja know to kill the First Hokage's friend for the infinity keystones when they explicitly say it was a stroke of luck he had them? Why did they kill him in the first place? If they wanted to pull a reason out of their ass, that's fine, but the fact it was shown and those very glaring questions weren't answered just made me yell "why?" at my computer and leave the zone to just do some roulette grinding.

[bitterhorn]

but to think that we wouldn't have considered other options and went straight to 'this is an abomination' and 'they aren't actually people' is far too close to genocide and the mindset of Emet-Selch then I'm comfortable with. Granted, I was sick to my stomach from the MSQ before that point and was largely skipping all dialogue and cutscenes but even still, it did not sit well with me.

exactly; this could've been a powerful story beat, the moment our YEARS of experience [LIVING THE CONSEQUENCES OF] & [LITERALLY FIGHTING AGAINST PEOPLE WITH] THIS EXACT SAME ENDS-JUSTIFY-THE-MEANS MENTALITY actually proved relevant and we finally stepped forward & were given some agency in how this on-rails narrative ACTUALLY RESOLVED. But of course not. of COURSE not.

It's like the cumulative themes and tone of this entire saga until this point (up to and including EW patch content, even) are reduced to irrelevant set dressing in someone's FFXIV fanfic.

[lolnotacat]

It's like the cumulative themes and tone of this entire saga until this point (up to and including EW patch content, even) are reduced to irrelevant set dressing in someone's FFXIV fanfic.

You're saying the Wuk can't hear, feel, and think her way to becoming the hokage?