Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[Dubont]

Yeah but for a game where we play as the WoL it's makes for a extremely grating play experiance and the friendship is extremely forced and as this and a lot of places show a lot of people do not find her likeable

I mean yeah she's cringey and all that, but also, this is HER expansion. Of course it's about her. Yes we play as the WoL but what world are we trying to save? We defeated literal gods. We defeated Zodiark. We defeated Zenos and the entire Garlean empire. There's no more world ending chaos going on that we have to stop (for now). So, despite being a huge powerful hero, we are not in a place where we are well known and are not needed to be such a hero at this time. It's actually a little refreshing after 14 years of being the main hero to finally sit back and be the super over powered sidekick for the story.

[jameseoakes]

I mean yeah she's cringey and all that, but also, this is HER expansion. Of course it's about her. Yes we play as the WoL but what world are we trying to save? We defeated literal gods. We defeated Zodiark. We defeated Zenos and the entire Garlean empire. There's no more world ending chaos going on that we have to stop (for now). So, despite being a huge powerful hero, we are not in a place where we are well known and are not needed to be such a hero at this time. It's actually a little refreshing after 14 years of being the main hero to finally sit back and be the super over powered sidekick for the story.

But why make her so utterally terrible and unpleasant to be around why build an entier expanstion around an outright bad character it's just not fun I paid money for this it should be good not outright bad

[Dubont]

But why make her so utterally terrible and unpleasant to be around why build an entier expanstion around an outright bad character it's just not fun I paid money for this it should be good not outright bad

IMO she comes off as a naive bubbly teen girl. While that IS extremely annoying in itself, it's part of her "growing up" and being "cultivated" into being a good ruler. If you start out as a hero, there's really no room to grow. This expansion sets up the story for the new arc. Of course new characters, especially ones that may grow to become great allies later on, are going to be annoying and cringe. I absolutely hated Nanamo when she was first introduced. Couldn't stand any of the 3 major cities' main characters. They were all cringe and annoying, especially Kan-E-Senna and they were even worse in 1.0. BUT over the course of the story their characters (mostly) grew into decent and likable.

So yeah just think of Lamat as an annoying, naive, teenage girl that hasn't had life kick her in the teeth yet and that leaves a lot of hope for future growth

[jameseoakes]

IMO she comes off as a naive bubbly teen girl. While that IS extremely annoying in itself, it's part of her "growing up" and being "cultivated" into being a good ruler. If you start out as a hero, there's really no room to grow. This expansion sets up the story for the new arc. Of course new characters, especially ones that may grow to become great allies later on, are going to be annoying and cringe. I absolutely hated Nanamo when she was first introduced. Couldn't stand any of the 3 major cities' main characters. They were all cringe and annoying, especially Kan-E-Senna and they were even worse in 1.0. BUT over the course of the story their characters (mostly) grew into decent and likable.

So yeah just think of Lamat as an annoying, naive, teenage girl that hasn't had life kick her in the teeth yet and that leaves a lot of hope for future growth

Sorry that's just terrible writting and the expample of the other rulers doesn't apply as we don't spend the enitertity of story arcs with them.

Making a character be annoying who's the focus of a plot is just bad writing making the player suffer through a frustrating character is just bad writing why make the character annoying they should be likeable I should like spending time with her, not skip scenes as just don't want to engage with them

[Dubont]

Sorry that's just terrible writting and the expample of the other rulers doesn't apply as we don't spend the enitertity of story arcs with them.

Making a character be annoying who's the focus of a plot is just bad writing making the player suffer through a frustrating character is just bad writing why make the character annoying they should be likeable I should like spending time with her, not skip scenes as just don't want to engage with them

How is it bad writing? Character growth is a thing. I'd honestly be interested in how many best selling books you've read if you think character growth where some of the best characters are annoying the first book or chapter is "bad writing." I'd also like to see examples of your published works lol. Might as well be full petty if we're going there, yeah?

[Galvuu]

How is it bad writing? Character growth is a thing. I'd honestly be interested in how many best selling books you've read if you think character growth where some of the best characters are annoying the first book or chapter is "bad writing." I'd also like to see examples of your published works lol. Might as well be full petty if we're going there, yeah?

I took a moment to ponder this, and think of a somewhat annoying MC from a book I enjoy. Do you know why Bilbo, who's insufferable, works as a character in his short story? Because he's thrust into non-stop fantastical action where he must take initiative. Literally a few dozen pages in, and he's using his wits to outsmart the trolls before they cook the dwarves alive.
There's the two differences I find comparing it to DT- Bilbo, while a bit of a twat, is a very quick thinker and surprisingly resourceful, and has a silver tongue. He will use honeyed words to buy time or squirm out of a situation, while MacGuyvering his way into a solution by cobbling something together with what he has at hand. He has strong points and redeemable qualities, and while he's annoyingly opposing adventure, he's extremely useful to his party from the get-go, and this is shown in a short but high-stakes action sequence.

I think this analogy is pretty good, because the WoL is kinda a Gandalf analogue. Yes, Gandalf can solve 99% of issues thrown Bilbo's way, but he doesn't want to. He trusts in his abilities and believes he can grow to be adventurous (which is why he picked him for that task to begin with).

Not a book, but this is also true of Luke, who's also a bit of a twat at the start of A New Hope. He's a skilled pilot, athletic and, ofc, strong with the Force.

I am curious about your recommendation on a book where the character is an irredeemable idiot, with no true skills, who just yaps around for the first 100 pages with 0 action though.

(edit: the more I dwell on it, the more I see this DT as a reverse The Hobit, where Gandalf solves everything, Bilbo has no redeeming qualities at all and just takes all the credit and somehow ends up as a ruler of a nation)

[Dubont]

I took a moment to ponder this, and think of a somewhat annoying MC from a book I enjoy. Do you know why Bilbo, who's insufferable, works as a character in his short story? Because he's thrust into non-stop fantastical action where he must take initiative. Literally a few dozen pages in, and he's using his wits to outsmart the trolls before they cook the dwarves alive.
There's the two differences I find comparing it to DT- Bilbo, while a bit of a twat, is a very quick thinker and surprisingly resourceful, and has a silver tongue. He will use honeyed words to buy time or squirm out of a situation, while MacGuyvering his way into a solution by cobbling something together with what he has at hand. He has strong points and redeemable qualities, and while he's annoyingly opposing adventure, he's extremely useful to his party from the get-go, and this is shown in a short but high-stakes action sequence.

I think this analogy is pretty good, because the WoL is kinda a Gandalf analogue. Yes, Gandalf can solve 99% of issues thrown Bilbo's way, but he doesn't want to. He trusts in his abilities and believes he can grow to be adventurous (which is why he picked him for that task to begin with).

Not a book, but this is also true of Luke, who's also a bit of a twat at the start of A New Hope. He's a skilled pilot, athletic and, ofc, strong with the Force.

I am curious about your recommendation on a book where the character is an irredeemable idiot, with no true skills, who just yaps around for the first 100 pages with 0 action though.

(edit: the more I dwell on it, the more I see this DT as a reverse The Hobit, where Gandalf solves everything, Bilbo has no redeeming qualities at all and just takes all the credit and somehow ends up as a ruler of a nation)

I do like the characters you picked. I was thinking Mat from Wheel of Time. First book? Complete idiot, but clearly agile. Third book? He starts showing real fighting skill. By the end of the series he was my favorite character.

[jameseoakes]

How is it bad writing? Character growth is a thing. I'd honestly be interested in how many best selling books you've read if you think character growth where some of the best characters are annoying the first book or chapter is "bad writing." I'd also like to see examples of your published works lol. Might as well be full petty if we're going there, yeah?

If a character is outright annoying and unpleastant like Wuk is I'd likely stop reading. Making a character outright boring and uncompelling is bad writing. Growth is good but the characeter who IS THE STORY needs to be compeling making the viewer site through hours of them being annoying and obnocixoous for the hope of growth is terrible writing

[CosmoBabylonia]

How is it bad writing? Character growth is a thing. I'd honestly be interested in how many best selling books you've read if you think character growth where some of the best characters are annoying the first book or chapter is "bad writing." I'd also like to see examples of your published works lol. Might as well be full petty if we're going there, yeah?

Please.....

In either this thread or another thread I've already mentioned Luke Skywalker and Cerys from Witcher 3.

If you want me to really just flip your argument around, look up the anime Seirei no Moribito. It's about a warrior who has to look after and mentor a royal prince, heir to the throne, while on the run from assassins. Now the prince in that anime is a LITERAL CHILD. That CHILD is not as annoying as Wuk Lamat and is smarter than her.

Good anime by the way so go watch it.

[jameseoakes]

Please.....

In either this thread or another thread I've already mentioned Luke Skywalker and Cerys from Witcher 3.

If you want me to really just flip your argument around, look up the anime Seirei no Moribito. It's about a warrior who has to look after and mentor a royal prince, heir to the throne, while on the run from assassins. Now the prince in that anime is a LITERAL CHILD. That CHILD is not as annoying as Wuk Lamat and is smarter than her.

Good anime by the way so go watch it.

Moribito is such a good anime.