Returning Summoner question

[vetch]

Summoner is now much more like what it is in traditional FFs. Calling summons to do a big flashy move and disappear.

Nobody tell her about FF10. Or 12. Or 13.

[rawker]

Nobody tell her about FF10. Or 12. Or 13.

[AlphaXXI]

Nobody tell her about FF10. Or 12. Or 13.

I mean, I get your point, but I'm pretty sure she used "traditionnal" to refer to the way summons were in most FF games before FFX started to switch things around a lot more. You know, how they mostly were from FFIII to FFIX.
I don't even think that really reflects the job as it is now anyway, since Phoenix and Bahamut don't work that way, but let's be charitable here.

[Galvuu]

I mean, I get your point, but I'm pretty sure she used "traditionnal" to refer to the way summons were in most FF games before FFX started to switch things around a lot more. You know, how they mostly were from FFIII to FFIX.
I don't even think that really reflects the job as it is now anyway, since Phoenix and Bahamut don't work that way, but let's be charitable here.

People say this, but prior to X the only FFs with a dedicated summoner job were IV, V and IX.
In IV, Rydia can learn like 20 summons has uses a lot of Black Magic (she even learns Meteor).
In IX, Garnet has like 10 Eidolons and also uses White Magic. In V, they're exclusively about summoning magic only (barring some RDM dualcast specs) and have 15 summons too.
Only Eiko can be somewhat compared to XIV in that she has five summons who are also the bulk of her offense.
If you compare XIV summon to Rydia or Garnet, it surprisingly still lacks both in summon variety and even in skillset (in XIV, when you're not summoning, you're using Ruin and... Fester. I'm not sure what you're festering, since your disease dots are gone).
I really feel that even compared to historical FF summoners, XIV fares really badly.

[AlphaXXI]

People say this, but prior to X the only FFs with a dedicated summoner job were IV, V and IX.
In IV, Rydia can learn like 20 summons has uses a lot of Black Magic (she even learns Meteor).
In IX, Garnet has like 10 Eidolons and also uses White Magic. In V, they're exclusively about summoning magic only (barring some RDM dualcast specs) and have 15 summons too.
Only Eiko can be somewhat compared to XIV in that she has five summons who are also the bulk of her offense.
If you compare XIV summon to Rydia or Garnet, it surprisingly still lacks both in summon variety and even in skillset (in XIV, when you're not summoning, you're using Ruin and... Fester. I'm not sure what you're festering, since your disease dots are gone).
I really feel that even compared to historical FF summoners, XIV fares really badly.

It's why I didn't say "Summoner" but "Summons", despite her using "Summoner" in her own post, I was making a broad statement about the act of summoning and the summons themselves, removed from the need for a specific job.

[Galvuu]

It's why I didn't say "Summoner" but "Summons", despite her using "Summoner" in her own post, I was making a broad statement about the act of summoning and the summons themselves, removed from the need for a specific job.

You're correct, I misread your post (probably because I read the whole thread in one go).
Either way, that's actually probably part of the problem- in a lot of FFs Summons are just magic nukes that anyone can use on top of other stuff. In the few where that isn't the case, there's another foundation.
I think XIV fails at both fronts anyway- the foundation in current SMN basically is as barebones as it can be (like... WHM level of dps foundation), and the summons themselves have very little variety (we have 5- soon to be 5 and a reskin, and, honestly, Phoenix kinda is a Bahamut reskin already). There's some interesting ideas with Garuda/Ifrit/Titan all having slightly different mechanics (long casts, ogcd weaving and rapid fire gcds). I still wish they added Ramuh/Leviathan/Odin and those had their own mechanics (some dot proc thing, some debuff/combo thing and a melee phase, maybe?). Something something "add depth later", later being never, I guess, CBU3.

[Sigiria]

Nobody tell her about FF10. Or 12. Or 13.

Ah, yes, nothing more traditional than good ol' FF12 summons or fans favorite ff13 summoning. Also even if both have the summons stays for a bit they're both temporary so in function not that different from demi-bahumut and demi-phoenix. You have more of a case with ff10 but then again if you just wanna be smug, what are you doing? FF11 is right here.

Point is, out of 16 main entries FF, 9 have summons that show up only to do one attack, 2 don't have summons, 2 have summons temporarily out on the field, 2 have persistent summons that function as a pet and 1 is FF16.

I'm not gonna argue with how the gameplay feels, I can understand people not liking it. But honestly I think the current summoner feels thematically way closer to what summoning has been in FF history rather than coughing on a monster to give it the flu then give it an infection while a little deformed aberration sometimes gives a hit in between two pleas to be put out of it's misery. The previous summoner felt more like the mad scientist job.

Oh and also it's "him"

[vetch]

Ah, yes, nothing more traditional than good ol' FF12 summons or fans favorite ff13 summoning. Also even if both have the summons stays for a bit they're both temporary so in function not that different from demi-bahumut and demi-phoenix. You have more of a case with ff10 but then again if you just wanna be smug, what are you doing? FF11 is right here.

Summon Ally is as 'traditional', in the strict sense, as Summon Cutscene is -- insofar as it's a facet of the series that's been present for several iterations. That's really all you need to be a 'tradition'.

This does get in the way of invoking the word 'tradition' as a talisman.

Point is, out of 16 main entries FF, 9 have summons that show up only to do one attack, 2 don't have summons, 2 have summons temporarily out on the field, 2 have persistent summons that function as a pet and 1 is FF16.

8 cutscene summoners, 2 non-summoners, 5 ally summoners, and then FF16. Counting both old and new versions of FF7, and not counting FF14 since it's the subject of argument (and also it uses both types of summons, lmao).

Also I don't really consider the distinction between temporary and permanent allies to be relevant here, since there are equally large distinctions in the cutscene varieties that you're ignoring to make your argument.

Like, FF6's 'only once per battle from an item you choose and equip beforehand' magicite system has as much or more conceptual distance from FF14's spam rotation, as temporary allies do from permanent ones.

I'm not gonna argue with how the gameplay feels, I can understand people not liking it. But honestly I think the current summoner feels thematically way closer to what summoning has been in FF history rather than coughing on a monster to give it the flu then give it an infection while a little deformed aberration sometimes gives a hit in between two pleas to be put out of it's misery. The previous summoner felt more like the mad scientist job.

Couldn't disagree more. You spend most of your time rapid-casting weak Magic Missiles, and when you do get to summon, everything's instant so you don't get the visceral experience of a charge-and-release cast, plus your main 3 still look like deformed digimon for the whole leveling experience and whenever you get synced down.

[AlphaXXI]

You spend most of your time rapid-casting weak Magic Missiles, and when you do get to summon, everything's instant so you don't get the visceral experience of a charge-and-release cast, plus your main 3 still look like deformed digimon for the whole leveling experience and whenever you get synced down.

Them looking deformed is more of an issue with old summoner than new summoner if we're being honest, and they're not going to change when you obtain the full forms. As for the weak magic missiles, yeah, that's an issue. And that could be fixed by giving each elemental phase more unique actions with specific effects instead of a (barely for the most part) recolored ruin. As for the act of summoning needing a "charge and release", if anything the demis should get a cast time, since they're the culmination of the rotation (and you get the most instant stuff from them). Because the elemental summons are there as fodder to get your rotation going, and as you said prior to level 90 they're nothing to write home about, it wouldn't make thematic sense to make such a big deal out of them.

I also think Solar Bahamut needs to have buildup, like a gauge of umbral aether that's required to shift Bahamut from astral to umbreal. THAT would create a "charge and release".

And aetherflow being linked to Energy Drain is just weird, when it has a different effect for Scholar. Would make more sense and honestly feel less vestigial to get it directly from trances. Especially when the low-level carbuncle-themed equivalent to bahamut trance does almost nothing. And give SMN the old energy drain back (along with shadowflare if you're not going to go back to the other DoTs).