Remove AoE healing from non healer jobs

[Bright-Flower]

Thinking about this in the other direction, "What level of AOE heal by a tank or DPS wouldn't be game ruining"

Option 1:
None. Probably the preferred option for the healers. That would require changing how several jobs work.

Option 2:
Combo only. So something like BRD or DNC might have a combo where every 8th cast does a either a solo cure or solo cure-3. Under the hood the game just enforces a 16 second recast for it, so it can't stomp on the healer's job, and it's only at the end of the combo. Tanks only get to use the heal after a successful mitigation combo so they can't just make themselves unkillable from the beginning.

Option 3:
GCD Items only. Players bringing pots that recover HP into the content can only use them when a party-shared healing GCD is open. If any heal has been cast, then the shared GCD is reset. Same goes for MP-recovering. All other buff pots that there is no player-cast equivalent use the players oGCD.

This would prevent players from using healing items if the healer is up, and provide an indicator that the healer is actually doing their job.

Option 4:
Bouncing the healing job. So a healer has to do the healing, and as long as the healer is "up" no other player can cast their self heal, AOE heal or healer-provided buffs, either via skill, action, cast, or item. If the healer KO's, the self-healing casts now activate in combos. This would still require some changes to tanks, but would probably just keep all the self-heal buttons on DPS disabled.


To me, the path of least resistance would be making healing on DPS and Tanks "less accessible" (eg, no "second wind" instant heals), it would only be something they can use if they are completing their combos, which would make it continue to be useful in solo instances, and when there is no healer, only then do they get to use healing items. When the healer is present in a party, the game changes the frequency of the self-heal in the combo. So the result in a solo instance might be 1-2-3-4-5(heal) but in a 4-man it might be 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-5(heal). They can also make this work by not activating the heal combo unless the HP is actually at 40% or below. So if a healer is over-healing to the point that everyone never drops below 40%, then the healing action never activates.

No thanks. If healers aren't having to heal that's more of an encounter design issue. Jobs having a bit of utility is fun and I'd no sooner take them away from non healesr as I would take away the few non glare spam damage buttons that healers still have. Maybe some individual ones could use balancing here and there, but I don't agree with any of these options.

[Rithy255]

Besides DNC which is 500 and SIO which is 1200 the rest are all 400 potency

That’s the same strength as the healers bread and butter heals like rapture and indom, costs the DPS nothing and when you have 4 DPS and 2 tanks you can rotate them very efficiently with near no effort

Points like this forget that maim and mend is a passive. DPS/Tank heals (that aren't casters) are by default 30% weaker in healing which might not sound like a lot but healing from those said jobs aren't as strong as they look

for example a 1000 Potency heal on a tank is more like 700 potency, a 400 potency heal is more like 280 potency ECT. This is why paladins clemency is actually slightly worse then Cure 2 on the same item level gear, Divine veil healing effect is actually more like 280 (so basically 300 potency) when it comes to healing ect.

People need to keep the maim and mend passive when discussing these sorts of potencies.

[Merrigan]

I don't think removing the skinny healing that some dps have is a good idea. Impoverishing other classes to feed your own is an admission of failure. It's much better, on the contrary, to focus on adding new features for healers (buff/debuff management/cc packs), or to make the necessary healing a bit higher.

[TBerry]

Thing is, RDM uses both black and white magic, for which they draw aether from themselves, rather than their surroundings, So it makes sense.
ACN gets heal and rez because they can become healers and/or DPS.
BRD can buff heals, but not heal others.

[KitiaraIornsight]

You all do realize that deep dungeons are partly the reason why all these jobs got these types of heals right? Also the trust system since trust bots don't use AOEs for any heal or dps? These heals rose out of the demand for NPCs to run dungeons and the deep dungeon model itself since you are not force grouped by the trinity... the answer is to force the deep dungeon to use trinity unless in a preformed group like the rest of duty finder and to fix the NPC AI to utilize their full kit like a real player would.

[Rithy255]

You all do realize that deep dungeons are partly the reason why all these jobs got these types of heals right? Also the trust system since trust bots don't use AOEs for any heal or dps? These heals rose out of the demand for NPCs to run dungeons and the deep dungeon model itself since you are not force grouped by the trinity... the answer is to force the deep dungeon to use trinity unless in a preformed group like the rest of duty finder and to fix the NPC AI to utilize their full kit like a real player would.

I don't even think this is close to true, they added potions for this purpose not healing to jobs, The trusts aren't meant to be good by design they're meant to be slow and not really the most optimal to encourage people using duty finder still, so using trusts as a baseline doesn't really make sense here, correct me if I'm wrong but Jobs outside of healer have always had access to healing, even in ARR you could become a class in the open world and have some healing spells, some jobs able to cross class and have abilities like cure, second wind ect. (I'm no ARR player i've only dont my research here).

I think theirs a point that healing can fit some jobs more then others this is why you see jobs like Paladin and red mage have healing or utility because they're meant to use some white magic, but why you don't see jobs like black Mage use healing because that's not what fits them, at least I think this makes the most sense.

[AnimaAnimus]

Our healer disconnected and ropped dead at 90% or so on the first boss of Zot two days ago and we managed to pull through with 3 people. GNB, DNC and MCH. You *can* mostly keep people alive with just DNC healing and mits in Normal content. It does require them not to stand in mechanics, though.

Using dungeons, one of the easiest pieces of content in the game that don't need healers to begin with, as a case to take away every else's heals, is really scraping for an arguement lol

[Aword3213]

Using dungeons, one of the easiest pieces of content in the game that don't need healers to begin with, as a case to take away every else's heals, is really scraping for an arguement lol

Healer stack marker seems to be the only saving grace that stops non healer comp from completing every Savage content though

[KisaiTenshi]

I don't even think this is close to true, they added potions for this purpose not healing to jobs, The trusts aren't meant to be good by design they're meant to be slow and not really the most optimal to encourage people using duty finder still, so using trusts as a baseline doesn't really make sense here, correct me if I'm wrong but Jobs outside of healer have always had access to healing, even in ARR you could become a class in the open world and have some healing spells, some jobs able to cross class and have abilities like cure, second wind ect. (I'm no ARR player i've only dont my research here).

I think theirs a point that healing can fit some jobs more then others this is why you see jobs like Paladin and red mage have healing or utility because they're meant to use some white magic, but why you don't see jobs like black Mage use healing because that's not what fits them, at least I think this makes the most sense.

ARR 2.0/2.1/2.x were able to cross-class healing, but when you did, you didn't have the benefit of the passives or the MND/PIE needed to cast it. So usually cross-classing cure to a DPS or Tank would just result in a much weaker cure.

I'd still advocate for removing "Role abilities" entirely and make everything specific to the role, so any "self-heal" would be in tune with the role and content, and not just "I have to press all the oGCD's or I'm not minmaxing enough"

As it is, Deep Dungeon has much, much weaker enemies compared to dungeon trash. Like the cast time of healer/summoner is so long that the melee DPS usually wipe out everything before a cast finishes. If you want to solo however, Melee DPS pretty much only have the pots.

It is however pretty clear that SE doesn't do a "one size fits all" content, otherwise things like the variant dungeon would not need the extra abilities. This content is actually harder to do as a healer because you already do a lot less damage, that the one DPS DoT action they give you is like much more powerful than anything you can cast, but tanks/dps can take the healing action and out-heal the healer.

I'm still advocating of removing all the self-healing options or changing them so they are job-specific that only work as part of the main combo. Like pressing "light hit" - "heavy hit" - and then "finishing hit" is what you'd do for damage or "finishing counter" for a DPS action that heals half and reflects half the damage. The heal itself shouldn't show up if it would be wasted though.

At any rate, how it worked in 2.x was actually pretty poor since only taking a healing skill from another healer even gave you an equal heal, but taking something that had a passive (Eg protect, revive) would make the skill not very useful in combat. If passives weren't part of it, you'd still have the VIT/STR/DEX/INT/MND stat determining how it works, so you'd end up with 1/10 the the power.

[BunnyQueen]

I agree with this, especially the warrior one, that job needs to have a lot of it's healing nerfed.