Remove AoE healing from non healer jobs

[aiqa]

I think this might be taking things a bit to far and it isn't helping the cause of improving healers.

It's fine to ask for adjustments to things that are actually causing balance issues in the sense they make healers completely irrelevant in certain content, or take over the majority of all healing required, while having no downsides. And I can see that balance issue perfectly fine for an stuff like Shake it Off + Nascent Flash. Considering all the secondary effects that can be start to rival of the strongest heal ogcd abilities from dedicated healer jobs. But the potency of the heals from dps classes is not nearly at that level, and their usefulness is even less if you include things like the tiny range of Curing Waltz, or being tied to a specific parts of a 2 minute rotation like SMN. If Shake it Off had a 3y range it would not nearly be as big an issue, even with it's overtuned heal+shield+regen.

For requesting tuning down heals from any non-healer job. I would only support that if those heals can take over the majority/all of the total required healing to run any content (extreme outliers not included) optimally.

[AnimaAnimus]

Idk, I have been in a lot of duties where the healers both wipe and my Curing Waltz or Pheonix doesn't really do anything to prevent a wipe unless the boss is under 5% and even then its not a certainty. The only time it saves the day is when it's just enough to allow us time to get a healer up again.

And sometimes it's useful (and this happens in way too many duties) when the healers get so focused on hardcast raising one person after another or just wanna go back to dps after raising ppl that they don't bother to heal the freshly raised who are sitting at 10% hp while a big unavoidable aoe is about to go out, which would just wipe all those ppl again because you can't be bothered, if it wouldn't be for my measley once every minute or two heal that I get.

But if you squint your eyes and stare at something hard enough, you can always make something out of nothing I guess.

[TsubameMikage]

How often do Tanks and DPS use their self heals anyway?

Paladin and Warrior use it all the time, can't speak as much to the other two tanks.

RDM's vercure is 350 potency, but can be used twice, which actually makes it better than "Cure 1" when applied to the same target. That makes it almost as good as Cure 2.

Monk has both bloodbath and second wind, AND it also has Riddle of Earth.

Summoner is ... complicated. Basically you need to do this to access that HP recovery AOE:
Summon Carbuncle -> Summon Phoenix -> Everlasting Flight (pet action) / Rekindle

Monk also has Earth's Reply, an AOE heal. Plus, Second Wind has been buffed across the board for all melee.

If we went with the "strip tanks of all self-healing" every tank would be broken except Gunbreaker and Dark Knight, and both of them would still be partially broken since it's part of their basic combo. Any changes to tanks to remove most or all of the self-healing would have to come with changing the knobs on mitigation so people don't just prefer the most unkillable tank.

Paladin wouldn't be broken if it lost its heal, but Warrior would need something else if it lost it's heal.. but if they were only applicable to themselves (So no casting on others), and toned down.. that would give some use back to healers.

[Rithy255]

It’s both content design and job design that is the issue, however content design is far harder to change overall since they usually do not go back and change old content, they have only done so for Trust system never for job changes.

PCT has an ogcd party wide shield that can be up for every single raid wide (even if they are 3s apart) in all but solo content, not even tanks or healers have access to such an ability, why the fuck is it on a dps?

I genuinely want to know why people think non healer jobs should have AoE healing at all, it isn’t their role they signed up for.

Job fantasy has always been second nature to the devs, DRK doesn’t reduce its own hp outside of PvP (something the job has historically done in past FFs but this is XIV it’s own game), AST’s job lore has been changed in the past to accommodate job changes so they are more than willing to change existing lore to suit themselves.

AoE healing should not exist on non healer jobs, let them have their self heals/shields still but at no point should Dps or tanks have AoE healing it isn’t their role (also a job forgot to mention in OP, Rpr AoE regen remove and make it for self only it doesn’t need a AoE regen at all).

AOE healing isn't their role? ok we take away DPS and mitigation from healers "because that's not their role" Healer's don't need to be the only role with healing, of course they should primary be the ones with healing and I'm not trying to argue against that, but allowing more classes with flexible abilities that actually add a little more depth in situations where said healing could help out is nice, it also fits a lot of jobs to have some for of small healing.

I understand that Healer's want to actually heal, but we have to consider the Identity and job fantasy of some Jobs, Paladin is a great example of this, while it's not a "healer" you'd expect a "paladin" to have some sort of utility with healing, something as Divine veil makes sense and can be balanced, Dancer has been a "healer" in other games, so it makes sense that it brings some healing utility, but things like warrior having strong target/party heals to me doesn't make any sense "job identity wise" I do believe they've added to much aoe healing to non healer jobs, But theirs room for some limited AOE healing in general and I'll stand by that point

Am I saying every Job needs AOE healing? no, I would actually like to reduce aoe healing, at least by reducing potencies and/or making CD's longer, or removing it in cases where I don't think it fits the class, Reaper, Warrior ect. But my point is AOE healing is manageable on nonhealer roles aslong as it doesn't go to absurd levels and the content actually has meaningful healing requirements.


Not really a response to the quote but my opinion is that
Healing on non healer roles is fine if it's balanced well, the issue is that it currently isn't, If you wanna "remove all aoe, sustain from all nonhealers" isn't going to make healer much better in casual content, I will agree that some jobs take it too far (looking at you warrior mains sorry), But a lot of people want to play tanks and DPS with some utility healing, taking that away from players just so healers can still complain that they're still barely healing in a dungeon isn't going to solve anything. if one or two healing AOE's can replace your entire role doesn't that say something more about how healers are designed? I doubt your role will barely even be more fun if you removed things from other jobs.

[Edmund_Blackadder]

As title says that is what should be a step(not the only one) the game should take if it wants to maintain the holy trinity of tank/healer/dps.

PCT does not need an AoE heal, that should be for PCT only same for their shield, it should be for themselves only.

Mnk does not need an AoE heal, self heals fine, not party wide

Smn does not need AoE regen it should be for Smn only

DNC does not need AoE heal, should be for themselves and Dance partner only.

War should not have an AoE shield+Regen, make it a AoE shield at least or AoE shield with self regen at most.


These changes would keep each job’s self sustain intact for themselves, but take away their ability to be able to keep a party alive longer, it’s not their job to maintain and manage the party’s hp it’s the healer role that should do, they should only have to manage their own hp at most for dps, using mitigation on top for tanks.

Healer role should be the only role to have AoE healing in it, should not have any AoE healing within the tank or dps roles.

I am fine with non healers having some group utility - otherwise what is the point? If that is the kind of "balance" you want in the game - just delete all other DPS jobs and just have SAM as melee DD and BLM as Caster DD

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I wonder how long till it takes for people to say the line: “If you want to heal, go player healer then.” :v

[Edmund_Blackadder]

I wonder how long till it takes for people to say the line: “If you want to heal, go player healer then.” :v

lol so true.

[PercibelTheren]

Personally, I'd rather keep them in conjunction with increasing incoming AoE damage. Boss raidwides right now mysteriously align perfectly with big healer OGCDs being available each time. Change that. I like that DPS are able to tide the group over for a little bit when the healers die, until the RDM/SMN gets them up again. I do think non-healers shouldn't be able to keep the party alive indefinitely, though.

Unless that happens, I'd rather lose my Curing Waltz than have healers feeling useless.

[PercibelTheren]

Idk, I have been in a lot of duties where the healers both wipe and my Curing Waltz or Pheonix doesn't really do anything to prevent a wipe unless the boss is under 5% and even then its not a certainty. The only time it saves the day is when it's just enough to allow us time to get a healer up again.

And sometimes it's useful (and this happens in way too many duties) when the healers get so focused on hardcast raising one person after another or just wanna go back to dps after raising ppl that they don't bother to heal the freshly raised who are sitting at 10% hp while a big unavoidable aoe is about to go out, which would just wipe all those ppl again because you can't be bothered, if it wouldn't be for my measley once every minute or two heal that I get.

But if you squint your eyes and stare at something hard enough, you can always make something out of nothing I guess.

Our healer disconnected and ropped dead at 90% or so on the first boss of Zot two days ago and we managed to pull through with 3 people. GNB, DNC and MCH. You *can* mostly keep people alive with just DNC healing and mits in Normal content. It does require them not to stand in mechanics, though.

[KisaiTenshi]

Paladin and Warrior use it all the time, can't speak as much to the other two tanks.



Monk also has Earth's Reply, an AOE heal. Plus, Second Wind has been buffed across the board for all melee.



Paladin wouldn't be broken if it lost its heal, but Warrior would need something else if it lost it's heal.. but if they were only applicable to themselves (So no casting on others), and toned down.. that would give some use back to healers.

Thinking about this in the other direction, "What level of AOE heal by a tank or DPS wouldn't be game ruining"

Option 1:
None. Probably the preferred option for the healers. That would require changing how several jobs work.

Option 2:
Combo only. So something like BRD or DNC might have a combo where every 8th cast does a either a solo cure or solo cure-3. Under the hood the game just enforces a 16 second recast for it, so it can't stomp on the healer's job, and it's only at the end of the combo. Tanks only get to use the heal after a successful mitigation combo so they can't just make themselves unkillable from the beginning.

Option 3:
GCD Items only. Players bringing pots that recover HP into the content can only use them when a party-shared healing GCD is open. If any heal has been cast, then the shared GCD is reset. Same goes for MP-recovering. All other buff pots that there is no player-cast equivalent use the players oGCD.

This would prevent players from using healing items if the healer is up, and provide an indicator that the healer is actually doing their job.

Option 4:
Bouncing the healing job. So a healer has to do the healing, and as long as the healer is "up" no other player can cast their self heal, AOE heal or healer-provided buffs, either via skill, action, cast, or item. If the healer KO's, the self-healing casts now activate in combos. This would still require some changes to tanks, but would probably just keep all the self-heal buttons on DPS disabled.


To me, the path of least resistance would be making healing on DPS and Tanks "less accessible" (eg, no "second wind" instant heals), it would only be something they can use if they are completing their combos, which would make it continue to be useful in solo instances, and when there is no healer, only then do they get to use healing items. When the healer is present in a party, the game changes the frequency of the self-heal in the combo. So the result in a solo instance might be 1-2-3-4-5(heal) but in a 4-man it might be 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-5(heal). They can also make this work by not activating the heal combo unless the HP is actually at 40% or below. So if a healer is over-healing to the point that everyone never drops below 40%, then the healing action never activates.