/r/ffxivdiscussion: A stricter ilvl sync is the solution to casual content being easy

[Johners]

Counter point but the point of gearing in an MMO is to make older content easier otherwise there's no point in the progression curve existing. If you're just going to tightly item level sync everything, just give us stat tables and make all gear slots purely cosmetic. You're meant to skip mechanics and even entire phases with gear, especially in normal mode content. Maybe I'm just accustomed to WoW where the power creep is insane (and that's before modes like MoP Remix) and you can melt bosses in a few minutes while ignoring 90% of the mechanics. I just feel it would be a huge step backwards if the impact of gearing was negated by syncing everything, at that point it wouldn't be worth doing anything more than once or twice (personally I'd save the glamour farming for when the weekly loot restrictions are removed).

[Supersnow845]

Counter point but the point of gearing in an MMO is to make older content easier otherwise there's no point in the progression curve existing. If you're just going to tightly item level sync everything, just give us stat tables and make all gear slots purely cosmetic. You're meant to skip mechanics and even entire phases with gear, especially in normal mode content. Maybe I'm just accustomed to WoW where the power creep is insane (and that's before modes like MoP Remix) and you can melt bosses in a few minutes while ignoring 90% of the mechanics. I just feel it would be a huge step backwards if the impact of gearing was negated by syncing everything, at that point it wouldn't be worth doing anything more than once or twice (personally I'd save the glamour farming for when the weekly loot restrictions are removed).

The thing is that 14 already has a decent gear curve it just doesn’t use it

Like let’s take aglaia, when aglaia was current content BIS was 600 and your random DF run of it was probably in the 570-580 range on average

If you had a moderately competent group who were all close to BIS you could skip scales. It wasn’t a given but you could

Now these days the average person entering aglaia is in 650 with a 665 weapon. Now skipping the 2 minute long mechanic before scales is common

The former sync creep is fine to represent the power fantasy of gearing up, the latter is just pointlessly excessive

[Jojoya]

Counter point but the point of gearing in an MMO is to make older content easier otherwise there's no point in the progression curve existing. If you're just going to tightly item level sync everything, just give us stat tables and make all gear slots purely cosmetic. You're meant to skip mechanics and even entire phases with gear, especially in normal mode content. Maybe I'm just accustomed to WoW where the power creep is insane (and that's before modes like MoP Remix) and you can melt bosses in a few minutes while ignoring 90% of the mechanics. I just feel it would be a huge step backwards if the impact of gearing was negated by syncing everything, at that point it wouldn't be worth doing anything more than once or twice (personally I'd save the glamour farming for when the weekly loot restrictions are removed).

If you don't want everything to be synced, then don't queue for synced content. Make use of the Duty Finder settings to unsync your party and invite like-minded players to join you.

The experience for new players is pretty bad if the veteran players in the party are almost instantly slaughtering everything because of power creep.

[ACE135]

Counter point but the point of gearing in an MMO is to make older content easier otherwise there's no point in the progression curve existing. If you're just going to tightly item level sync everything, just give us stat tables and make all gear slots purely cosmetic. You're meant to skip mechanics and even entire phases with gear, especially in normal mode content. Maybe I'm just accustomed to WoW where the power creep is insane (and that's before modes like MoP Remix) and you can melt bosses in a few minutes while ignoring 90% of the mechanics. I just feel it would be a huge step backwards if the impact of gearing was negated by syncing everything, at that point it wouldn't be worth doing anything more than once or twice (personally I'd save the glamour farming for when the weekly loot restrictions are removed).

Gearing up isn't solely for making content easier but also to get access to higher duties.

[Gemina]

Counter point but the point of gearing in an MMO is to make older content easier otherwise there's no point in the progression curve existing. If you're just going to tightly item level sync everything, just give us stat tables and make all gear slots purely cosmetic. You're meant to skip mechanics and even entire phases with gear, especially in normal mode content.

False. The point of ilv is to incentivize progression because you will be locked out of higher duties until you do. BiS or close to it is to help make the game's difficult content easier to clear. Normal content is already designed in a way to not prevent progression. There is no reason for these encounters to be made easier than their intended difficulty upon release. The echo already exists to assist groups who do have trouble clearing the content.

Enemies becoming weaker because you become stronger is just fine in a single player scenario. This is absolutely not the same case in a multi-player situation. There could be new players who deserve to have the same experience as the players before them, and there simply could be players who need somewhat of a threat level from enemies to find the content engaging and fun to do.

Games are supposed to be fun, and how players find braindead content where the opposition has zero chance of defeating the players fun is beyond me. You're not even playing the game at that point. Might as well replace yourself with a drinking bird and fix yourself something to eat.

[Erzaa]

False. The point of ilv is to incentivize progression because you will be locked out of higher duties until you do. BiS or close to it is to help make the game's difficult content easier to clear. Normal content is already designed in a way to not prevent progression. There is no reason for these encounters to be made easier than their intended difficulty upon release. The echo already exists to assist groups who do have trouble clearing the content.

Enemies becoming weaker because you become stronger is just fine in a single player scenario. This is absolutely not the same case in a multi-player situation. There could be new players who deserve to have the same experience as the players before them, and there simply could be players who need somewhat of a threat level from enemies to find the content engaging and fun to do.

I don't understand what you feel you're arguing here. The poster is correct. The reason leveling and gearing exist is for the player to feel a sense of progression, becoming more powerful. Levels and gear is the RPG equivalent of mastering your art. It's been that way since the days of tabletop RPGs, and I don't see how anyone can claim D&D is a single player game.

If you must become stronger to take on the next challenge, then inevitably the previous challenge must effectively be easier. If the previous challenge you overcame isn't easier now, then the next challenge is effectively moot, you've gained no progression.

This isn't a single player or multiplayer situation, it's how a real world concept is translated into a video game. If every player is supposed to always have the same difficulty at all times, there's absolutely no reason for levels or gear at all. The SE team could effectively balance every single encounter around your base stats and damage of your abilities, change up the encounter mechanics, and just make all gear glam.

Having said that, I do understand the argument for say a level 50 player not seeing the whole fight, because gear and higher level players make the content too easy to blast through. At level 50, a level 50 encounter should be hard, at level 90, a level 50 encounter should be a joke. But how do you balance something in such a way that a new player enjoys the complete fight as it was intended, without making the player who's already completed that challenge feel like they're progression wasn't meaningless?

Games are supposed to be fun, and how players find braindead content where the opposition has zero chance of defeating the players fun is beyond me. You're not even playing the game at that point. Might as well replace yourself with a drinking bird and fix yourself something to eat.

And fun is subjective. I frequently have fun performing "braindead content" as you say, because after a long day of non-braindead stressful work, I want to sit back and relax with my entertainment. Perhaps on a weekend where I have alot more free time, I might feel an inclination for something more challenging.

What can SE do to keep higher level players filling the queues, while also giving lower level players a decent challenge? I don't know.

But as it stands, you do have the tools to experience harder casual content for yourself if that's your wish. Wear crappy gear, find the duty you want to do, set it to MINE on PF and play with people who have the same mindset as you.

[Gemina]

BS, I see non tanks killed by the charges all the time, especially if they are a squishier job (any casters or phys range). I've also seen sprout tanks eat dirt taking all three charges. As far as making lower stuff harder, I strongly suspect it's advocated mainly by those who only do rouls w/ their friends/fc, I solely solo queue and exactly zero desire for dungeons to be harder. Why you ask? Because it's hard enough trying to herd cats as it is, yes you can get vets that make the run "boring" but you can just a easily get an all sprout but you group that makes it a nightmare (crap gear, poor/no use of skills, won't listen). For me that randomness is what I like about roul (even if I grumble about poor play sometimes), never know if it's going to great or terrible lol.

If you have max stats for the duty, the charges will not kill you. Perhaps not all three, but you can definitely eat two of them as a non tank. They don't even put vuln stacks on you. Players killed by the charges have squishy gear.

You're also mistaking the request of difficulty. No one is asking for these duties to be harder. They only want them to be brought back to the level of difficulty they once were at. And an all sprout group is a moot argument. Player skill level should not be the determining factor for where the difficulty is set. This isn't anymore true for an all sprout group as it is a group of vets.

I don't understand what you feel you're arguing here. The poster is correct. The reason leveling and gearing exist is for the player to feel a sense of progression, becoming more powerful. Levels and gear is the RPG equivalent of mastering your art. It's been that way since the days of tabletop RPGs, and I don't see how anyone can claim D&D is a single player game.

FFXIV isn't a RPG. It is a single player game with mmo elements sprinkled in. You do get more powerful as you level up. You get stronger gear and more powerful abilities that make it easier for you to kill stuff, and make it more difficult for stuff to kill you. This is fully intact. Taking on your weekly elite B mark in the current expansion is a testament to that as it gets easier and easier to defeat as you gear up throughout the expansion. However, this quasi sense of power should not come at the expense of challenge and engagement to the other players in your group, or even yoursself.

If you must become stronger to take on the next challenge, then inevitably the previous challenge must effectively be easier. If the previous challenge you overcame isn't easier now, then the next challenge is effectively moot, you've gained no progression.

This is false. There is no truth to this whatsoever.

This isn't a single player or multiplayer situation, it's how a real world concept is translated into a video game. If every player is supposed to always have the same difficulty at all times, there's absolutely no reason for levels or gear at all. The SE team could effectively balance every single encounter around your base stats and damage of your abilities, change up the encounter mechanics, and just make all gear glam.

Again, you get stronger gear to prepare yourself for the next challenge. If you want to talk about how a real world concept is translated into a video game, then in order to get better and stronger, you have to push yourself. It doesn't happen by tackling challenges that are too easy for you. Ask any weight lifter if they feel more powerful when they do lifts that are easy for them, or when they go past their previous max lift. Ask any runner if they feel more powerful by run a distance they're used to, or when they go past their previous limit. Your sense of power and progression is false. Sorry.

And fun is subjective. I frequently have fun performing "braindead content" as you say, because after a long day of non-braindead stressful work, I want to sit back and relax with my entertainment. Perhaps on a weekend where I have alot more free time, I might feel an inclination for something more challenging.

You're correct. It is subjective. But again, if you're not being challenged, then your not even really playing the game. Games are supposed to be fun and challenging. Otherwise, what are you even doing? What exactly are you being entertained by that you can't get from reading a book, watching a movie, or something else that does not require your engagement. No one is saying you can't relax. What people like me are saying is that your leisurely activity should not come at the expense of others. Stop being selfish.

What can SE do to keep higher level players filling the queues, while also giving lower level players a decent challenge? I don't know.

But as it stands, you do have the tools to experience harder casual content for yourself if that's your wish. Wear crappy gear, find the duty you want to do, set it to MINE on PF and play with people who have the same mindset as you.

You're under the impression that I am just thinking about myself. What makes you think that this isn't how I already play the game? I can't even remember the last time I did a roulette. Despite this, if I do decide to hop into trial or raid roulette, it is not unreasonable for the duty to be as difficult as it was intended upon its release.

[Erzaa]

FFXIV isn't a RPG. It is a single player game with mmo elements sprinkled in.

In that case, based on your previous argument, power creep shouldn't be a problem, because it's ok for single player games to allow players to be strong.

This is false. There is no truth to this whatsoever.

Interesting. So in your mind, a seasoned pianist has the same struggles as a student just starting out?

If you want to talk about how a real world concept is translated into a video game, then in order to get better and stronger, you have to push yourself. It doesn't happen by tackling challenges that are too easy for you. Ask any weight lifter if they feel more powerful when they do lifts that are easy for them, or when they go past their previous max lift. Ask any runner if they feel more powerful by run a distance they're used to, or when they go past their previous limit. Your sense of power and progression is false. Sorry.

You did push yourself. You completed that level 50 encounter when you were at level 50 and have now surpassed it, overcame it. Repeating that encounter should now be easy for you. Once you've mastered the basics, they are just that, the basics. Or do you believe repeating a Plié is to a Prima Ballerina anything but a warmup? The current challenge is to master an entire dance routine.

Games are supposed to be fun and challenging.

Says who? For that matter, who's to say what's challenging to one person, isn't easy for the next? Who defines what challenging means?

Otherwise, what are you even doing? What exactly are you being entertained by that you can't get from reading a book, watching a movie, or something else that does not require your engagement.

I'm being entertained. As you said, I can watch a movie, read a book, cook a meal, play a video game, do anything I find entertaining. That's why video games fall under entertainment.

Stop being selfish.

The only one being selfish here is you. You want everyone else to play like you'd like to play. Add to that, you responded rudely to a valid remark, and were factually incorrect in your response.

The entire point of my post is that you responded to an opposing argument providing an objectively wrong statement. XP and gear have always existed in RPGs for the very purpose of providing a player with meaningful progression, as evidence of a mastery of their art. Just as in real life, when you practice and practice something, you improve on it, become better, and the basics become easy, as second nature, and you also eventually upgrade to using better tools. That's the reason for its very existence from the day it was conceived.

You're under the impression that I am just thinking about myself.

You are though. Because you're incapable of considering others' point of view. Like how you completely skipped the part of my argument where I said:

Having said that, I do understand the argument for say a level 50 player not seeing the whole fight, because gear and higher level players make the content too easy to blast through. At level 50, a level 50 encounter should be hard, at level 90, a level 50 encounter should be a joke.

If you believe as a level 90 character, in full gear, you should be struggling in a level 50 encounter as if it's your first time doing it, then I don't know what to tell you, except that's an irrational idea.

The problem for SE arises from the fact they need seasoned players to keep the queues filled, in order for the content to still be available for new players.

When a new player with crappy gear enters a duty, they should ideally see all the mechanics, experience the whole fight, struggle and overcome it.

However, seasoned players who've completed this challenge and have better gear, stats and knowledge of it, blast through the encounter. Why? Because this is a challenge they've already overcome and it should rightfully be easy for them.

How do you balance these two opposite scenarios? On the one hand, you want the new player to experience the whole fight and overcome said challenge, on the other hand, you don't want to eliminate the seasoned player's progress and make them feel like they're still weak and useless and all their accomplishments were for naught.

So far, they've settled on what you might call a middle ground.

The very concept of syncing someone experienced down, removing abilities they've supposedly mastered, and weakening them, goes against the philosophy that one is now past one milestone and ready for the next challenge.

On the other hand, not doing so for the sake of balance, would make things even worse for the new players, as letting seasoned players maintain all their power would mean everything dies in one hit.

Removing the seasoned players entirely would just make the old content impossible to complete.

Is there a better solution? Perhaps, I don't know.

Finally, if you really are so considerate of new players and want them to experience the fight as it was intended on release, make a PF and bring them in and intentionally lower your gear.

If you're intent on using the roulette, how about you intentionally lower your damage, stop hitting the boss for a few seconds at a time, so they experience the whole fight without skips?

[Gemina]

In that case, based on your previous argument, power creep shouldn't be a problem, because it's ok for single player games to allow players to be strong.

You're being obtuse. I've made it clear that the situation we are talking about within FFXIV is grouping. The actual mmo aspect of the game.

Interesting. So in your mind, a seasoned pianist has the same struggles as a student just starting out?

A seasoned pianist doesn't progress or even retain their level of skill by always playing Mary had a Little Lamb. A seasoned pianist can only progress further by surmounting additional challenges such as learning new songs to play, incorporating new techniques and perfecting them, and stilling their nerves for recitals in front of many observers. Several of which will be critiquing everything they have learned.

You did push yourself. You completed that level 50 encounter when you were at level 50 and have now surpassed it, overcame it. Repeating that encounter should now be easy for you. Once you've mastered the basics, they are just that, the basics. Or do you believe repeating a Plié is to a Prima Ballerina anything but a warmup? The current challenge is to master an entire dance routine.

And it is. It is easier for you because now you know the fight. Why should the fight becomes easier by punishing you less for screwing up? Why should the players new to the fight be punished less for screwing up? What exactly is wrong with making the playing field even for all those who are participating?

Says who? For that matter, who's to say what's challenging to one person, isn't easy for the next? Who defines what challenging means?

You're missing the point. The idea is to keep the content with the same intended difficulty when it was released. This isn't about a subjective challenge level based on player skill levels. This is about keeping the set challenge level consistent, and not allowing power creeping to dumb down the content.

I'm being entertained. As you said, I can watch a movie, read a book, cook a meal, play a video game, do anything I find entertaining. That's why video games fall under entertainment.

The only one being selfish here is you. You want everyone else to play like you'd like to play. Add to that, you responded rudely to a valid remark, and were factually incorrect in your response.

"I'm rubber, you're glue" rebuttals are childish. Instead try to understand why I say you're being selfish instead of getting offended by it. This quote start's off with "I'm", "I'm being entertained." What about the other players in your group? In this thread alone it should easy for you to identify which posters are not happy with the same entertainment you're getting. They are not as entertained as you, and I am thinking about others, including you. This is why I am not asking for the content to be more difficult than intended. Only for it to be brought back to that level. This is not unreasonable, or unfair to anyone.

The entire point of my post is that you responded to an opposing argument providing an objectively wrong statement. XP and gear have always existed in RPGs for the very purpose of providing a player with meaningful progression, as evidence of a mastery of their art. Just as in real life, when you practice and practice something, you improve on it, become better, and the basics become easy, as second nature, and you also eventually upgrade to using better tools. That's the reason for its very existence from the day it was conceived.

I'm starting to wonder if you understand what progression is. Progression is a succession. It occurs when you overcome an obstacle/objective or anything in that matter that prevents further development, and in this process, you become more developed or honed. In an RPG, better and stronger gear is to prep you for the next challenge in order to continue your progression. Yes, as a consequence of obtaining more power, that which is behind you has become weaker/easier. What I am saying is that this isn't what should make a player feel more powerful. This is a false sense of power. In order to obtain a true sense of power, you must surpass that which provides resistance. What players are doing now is akin to being an adult and schooling a bunch of nine-year olds at basketball.

You are though. Because you're incapable of considering others' point of view. Like how you completely skipped the part of my argument where I said:

If you believe as a level 90 character, in full gear, you should be struggling in a level 50 encounter as if it's your first time doing it, then I don't know what to tell you, except that's an irrational idea.

Not even one time have I made this suggestion. This is your misunderstanding of what it is I am actually proposing. What this game does is allows a ridiculous advantage to players whose level is synced with the duty they are participating in. You're not level 90 when your synced to lv 50 content. You are level 50, and very likely have an asinine advantage over the players who are there for their first time because of power creep. What I am suggesting is the same treatment they have given to Endsinger in this expansion, except all across the board. Every trial. Every raid. The only content that really works like this now are leveling dungeons, and this isn't a problem for anyone.

The problem for SE arises from the fact they need seasoned players to keep the queues filled, in order for the content to still be available for new players.

When a new player with crappy gear enters a duty, they should ideally see all the mechanics, experience the whole fight, struggle and overcome it.

However, seasoned players who've completed this challenge and have better gear, stats and knowledge of it, blast through the encounter. Why? Because this is a challenge they've already overcome and it should rightfully be easy for them.

Again, their knowledge of the fight already accomplishes this. There is no reason for them to be punished less than the next player for screwing up. If they truly are better than the sprout, then they shouldn't be getting hit by avoidable damage. They should know how to resolve the mechanics. However, they most certainly should receive the same damage from the boss's attacks. This is the last time I am going to repeat this.

How do you balance these two opposite scenarios? On the one hand, you want the new player to experience the whole fight and overcome said challenge, on the other hand, you don't want to eliminate the seasoned player's progress and make them feel like they're still weak and useless and all their accomplishments were for naught.

I've already answered this. Multiple times now. You simply level the playing field. That's it. And the dev team are not obligated to stroke egos.

So far, they've settled on what you might call a middle ground.

The very concept of syncing someone experienced down, removing abilities they've supposedly mastered, and weakening them, goes against the philosophy that one is now past one milestone and ready for the next challenge.

On the other hand, not doing so for the sake of balance, would make things even worse for the new players, as letting seasoned players maintain all their power would mean everything dies in one hit.

Removing the seasoned players entirely would just make the old content impossible to complete.

Is there a better solution? Perhaps, I don't know.

Roulettes do not exist to progress players who have already surmounted those challenges. They exist to fill queues for the game's content, and they incentivize players to run them with rewards such as tomes, XP, gil, quest items, etc. They are there to help other players progress through the game who have yet to meet these challenges. At any given time, you can queue up for content sufficient for your level and ilv in order to flex the power you have obtained to that point, but when you are participating in synced content, there is absolutely no reason why you should have an advantage over those who are there with you. Knowledge is your advantage. Use it to help the other players lacking it.

Finally, if you really are so considerate of new players and want them to experience the fight as it was intended on release, make a PF and bring them in and intentionally lower your gear.

If you're intent on using the roulette, how about you intentionally lower your damage, stop hitting the boss for a few seconds at a time, so they experience the whole fight without skips?

I really, really hope you can come to understand the futility in this suggestion someday.

[Boblawblah]

I really, really hope you can come to understand the futility in this suggestion someday.

A bit of self-awareness maybe coming through?