Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Zadood]

You know, I been wondering, instead of creating contents for healer...

Why not make most of High End Hardcore content to be "Salvageable" by Healers?

I know some folks might against the idea of High End Hardcore content being make easier because unsalvageable High End Hardcore content is best way to retain the "prestige" of legend title value and gatekeep it from "weaker" player.

But isn't that's the whole point of getting good with your class?
When both Tank and DPS are really good with their job, it make a lot of High End Hardcore content became easier, but at the cost of Healers' Role validity to the party.

High End Hardcore content became salvageable and likely clearable because Healers are good at their job.
It's NOT something be to scorn off or be dismissive about it.

If a little "nerf" to the High End Hardcore content can bring back the validity of Healers, it's something worth to trade off if you ask me.

Especially if Healer role can't really shine at all in a extremely well condinated teams, so why not make Healer role shine in a less ideal team?

[Somnolence]

You know, I been wondering, instead of creating contents for healer...

Why not make most of High End Hardcore content to be "Salvageable" by Healers?

Well, player failure increasing burden on healers can lead to toxicity.

This is why hardest content has damage downs instead of vulns, since then player failing a mech only results in enrage check being harder but healers don't have to do anything extra.

[OgruMogru]

You know, I been wondering, instead of creating contents for healer...

Why not make most of High End Hardcore content to be "Salvageable" by Healers?

I know some folks might against the idea of High End Hardcore content being make easier because unsalvageable High End Hardcore content is best way to retain the "prestige" of legend title value and gatekeep it from "weaker" player.

But isn't that's the whole point of getting good with your class?
When both Tank and DPS are really good with their job, it make a lot of High End Hardcore content became easier, but at the cost of Healers' Role validity to the party.

High End Hardcore content became salvageable and likely clearable because Healers are good at their job.
It's NOT something be to scorn off or be dismissive about it.

If a little "nerf" to the High End Hardcore content can bring back the validity of Healers, it's something worth to trade off if you ask me.

Especially if Healer role can't really shine at all in a extremely well condinated teams, so why not make Healer role shine in a less ideal team?

I wish they would! Past approaches to savage meant that the fight encounters were indeed designed to be more salvageable. It's been ShB and EW that have been the worst for snubbing healer recovery.

[Supersnow845]

I wish they would! Past approaches to savage meant that the fight encounters were indeed designed to be more salvageable. It's been ShB and EW that have been the worst for snubbing healer recovery.

Even ShB wasn’t really that bad, EW’s propensity for debuff vomit that kills everyone upon one person’s death are really only present in Gaia and even on her It’s more intermediate will always resolve wrong without movement but not so much “all debuffs will be released upon death killing everyone” that EW has favoured

There was a lot of times when someone died in junction titan for example that everyone could organise their debuffs around the dead persons debuff and resolve the mechanic correctly. Same as like a dead body didn’t attract the shadow keepers orbs and if a tank died a DPS could sacrifice themselves to take a tank orb because the remaining DPS and a healer could survive the orb meant for 3

[OgruMogru]

Even ShB wasn’t really that bad, EW’s propensity for debuff vomit that kills everyone upon one person’s death are really only present in Gaia and even on her It’s more intermediate will always resolve wrong without movement but not so much “all debuffs will be released upon death killing everyone” that EW has favoured

There was a lot of times when someone died in junction titan for example that everyone could organise their debuffs around the dead persons debuff and resolve the mechanic correctly. Same as like a dead body didn’t attract the shadow keepers orbs and if a tank died a DPS could sacrifice themselves to take a tank orb because the remaining DPS and a healer could survive the orb meant for 3

Agreed! just worried If i didn't mention Shb it would get brought up eventually XP

[SieyaM]

Because SE refuses to unlock glamour and people want the aesthetic of a job without wanting to learn how to play it. And I'm being 100% serious with this.

And the thing is, we HAD systems to make jobs more difficult for players who wanted to push themselves in harder content but weren't mandatory for casual content like cleric stance, tank stances and positionals... and they took them away.

In ARR if you were running with a group and didn't use cleric stance as a healer you were either ridiculed or kicked, it was not optional.

[ty_taurus]

In ARR if you were running with a group and didn't use cleric stance as a healer you were either ridiculed or kicked, it was not optional.

Absolutely bullshit.

First of all, not DPSing was far more common in ARR particularly because most players just assumed it wouldn't be worth the effort. It took a long time for healer DPS actually being powerful to become public knowledge. And even then, if you were trying to do coils, people valued slower, safer clears because we didn't have hard enrage timers like we do currently.

Don't believe me? World first clear of Coil 12, WHM POV. Healer DPS a part of even ARR healer design, but it was far more optional.

Criticism of healers not DPSing got stronger moreso in Heavensward, but primarily for one reason: people were tired of healers who had everything under control and needed no healing standing around and doing nothing for most of the fight. That what was being criticized and considered to be a form of griefing.

[SieyaM]

Absolutely bullshit.

First of all, not DPSing was far more common in ARR particularly because most players just assumed it wouldn't be worth the effort. It took a long time for healer DPS actually being powerful to become public knowledge. And even then, if you were trying to do coils, people valued slower, safer clears because we didn't have hard enrage timers like we do currently.

Don't believe me? World first clear of Coil 12, WHM POV. Healer DPS a part of even ARR healer design, but it was far more optional.

Criticism of healers not DPSing got stronger moreso in Heavensward, but primarily for one reason: people were tired of healers who had everything under control and needed no healing standing around and doing nothing for most of the fight. That what was being criticized and considered to be a form of griefing.

This isn't about world first clears of the hardest content at the time, this is about running dungeons and alliance raids. But the fact that you use that as the metric by which all other aspects of the game should be played does show that things that happen in these world first and raiding groups bleeds into all content, and people expect players in all content to be reaching for that level of play.

[Moomba33]

Yeah I was a nervous healer back in ARR/early HW and basically only used Cleric to apply/reapply my dots and never got kicked. This all for DF level content, I never attempted healing Coil.

All anecdotal experience of course, but I can say that low/no dps healers were more common in those older days. I personally only remember encountering two zero dps healers in Endwalker. Both in Eden Leviathan strangely enough.

[ty_taurus]

This isn't about world first clears of the hardest content at the time, this is about running dungeons and alliance raids. But the fact that you use that as the metric by which all other aspects of the game should be played does show that things that happen in these world first and raiding groups bleeds into all content, and people expect players in all content to be reaching for that level of play.

I used it as a metric to show that not even the hardcore players who care about performance and optimization cared that their healers were maximizing DPS output. You think some mook in your random dungeon run gave half a shit if you were DPSing? As someone who learned how healing worked in ARR because I was actually there, I'm telling you that you're no where even close to being truthful about ARR DPS.

One random asshole in Stone Vigil 10 years ago: "You know you can use Cleric Stance in dungeons, right?"

Coming to you from Fox News: This just in, healers who failed to reach 80% DPS uptime or more during A Realm Reborn dungeons were kicked from parties, ridiculed, and doxed online. More totally accurate healer news at 11.