Making jobs simpler is a mistake, let players fail.

[Aravell]

I don't understand who these changes are supposed to benefit.

I've said before in another thread but these changes aren't made for the casual player or the hardcore raider.

These changes are made for the above average players who think that certain aspects of a job are preventing them from being perfect, they often refer to these aspects as "clunk", they then demand the removal of all things they deem "clunk" so that the skill ceiling crashes down onto them with zero effort spent climbing on their part.

[noumen0nn]

I've said before in another thread but these changes aren't made for the casual player or the hardcore raider.

These changes are made for the above average players who think that certain aspects of a job are preventing them from being perfect, they often refer to these aspects as "clunk", they then demand the removal of all things they deem "clunk" so that the skill ceiling crashes down onto them with zero effort spent climbing on their part.

100% agreed

[AnnRam]

My anxiety comes first so every job needs to be even easier than now.

1 or 2 bottom max, infinite HP and probably auto-play system.

[ZiraZ]

I've said before in another thread but these changes aren't made for the casual player or the hardcore raider.

These changes are made for the above average players who think that certain aspects of a job are preventing them from being perfect, they often refer to these aspects as "clunk", they then demand the removal of all things they deem "clunk" so that the skill ceiling crashes down onto them with zero effort spent climbing on their part.

I wouldn't call Expert Mains above average players but I do think it's funny how casuals are getting majorly fugged by Body Check Trailwalker raid design.

[helloitme]

I prefer all jobs being approachable and manageable because if something is too complicated and annoying to play, most people are going to ignore playing it, or even want to avoid bringing it along for harder content because the failure-rate is too high.

I've seen what happens in other MMOs when developers go too hard into thinking some classes require piano skills to play effectively (or at all), it results in player choice becoming homogenized anyway because most people, especially the hardcore crowd going for their world first races, are going to pick what gets the job done the quickest, not the one that can spin the most plates, and in general you don't really want to create a sense of "wow, this job sucks to play compared to this other job that performs the same function" given that unlike most MMOs, you can just change your job instead of being forced to reroll entirely, meaning people can and *will* leave certain jobs to wither if the extra effort isn't worth it because we aren't required to be over-committed to the one character with the one class we picked at creation.
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I couldn't disagree more. Throughout HW and STB, when jobs were at their hardest, drk was the hardest tank to play in what many considered to ne an already difficult role at the time. Despite this, drk was still overwhelmingly popular with both casual and hardcore players alike, because it was fun and a spectacle to look at. Plenty of casual people played it, and it was what initially drew me to tanking when i started, and it was my first mmo, so i didn't fully understand the trinity role system at the time. I learned it and got good st it because it was fun and facilitated thinking about my actions. Then on the hardcore side, there was a drk/pld combo involved in the world first for both ucob and uwu, despite warrior being both better performing and easier to play at the time, just because those players liked those jobs.

There is still a stigma about blm amd ast being hard to play, despite neither of them being hard to play for 5 years. People still think of blm as a turret in spite of the fact that it has more mobility than rdm now. Yet people still play those jobs, just as they did when they were actually hard. So no, i would heavily disagree with the notion that homogenization and simplification of jobs in this game specifically serves any purpose other than taking the fun out for people who did enjoy that aspect. As it stands, i don't think a single job in the game currently is fun or interesting, and I'll probably quit because of it, but i wanted to give my feedback because i want to enjoy the game again, and i know my feelings aren't unique to me.

[helloitme]

This feels like 2 separate types of conversations bumping into one another, dropping their identical handbags, and each one picking up the opposite handbag by mistake.

Simplification of the increased amount of skills we get expansion after expansion does not null out or negate failure in understanding the content a person is playing; so please can we separate these two concepts and give them their correct handbags back?

You're taking the title as standalone and not interpreting it in context of the contents within the post. Obviously people still fail content. By "fail" i mean failing to plsy jobs to a competent degree. You just hit buttons when they light up now. If you miss a positional? Oh well, you only lost 20 potency. Didn't refresh fire before it fell off? That's okay, you only lose a bit of potency, just go back into fire or ice and enochian is right there waiting for you. I've been talking solely about job design through the entirety of my post

[ParadoxHealer]

This game was at it's prime when the roles and processes were complicated. Similar to the discussion regarding Dark, Astrologian was the most fun and challenge with the original cards. Healers, DPS, and Tanks were great when they were distinct and challenging. I also loved the process with two classes for the jobs and the cross class skills, it was unique. Not only do these changes destroy the fun of the jobs and the unique aspects of pairing up with different teams, but original job stories revolved around skills and make no sense in some cases. Stop expecting everyone to be perfect. If you want perfect players to do all content then join an FC with other like minded individuals. Some of the most fun I have is healing for a group where people make mistakes even before healing had been so dumbed down. I enjoy working with someone who is struggling in a dungeon/trial/raid to help them complete the first time. The whole point of MMOs is to play with others, but people here get so obsessed with everyone hitting their damage mark, etc. The fun of MMOs is playing with other people and the challenges and fun that comes from that. Jobs should not all hit the same mark, it is most fun when they have strengths and weakness instead of trying to make them all similar, losing their unique qualities and challenges.

[Zadood]

I will fault the general encounter design.

The scripted nature of most fight strongly discourage any form of varieties of plays as well as eliminated many varieties of mistakes. Since you only can pass the mechanic in one or two fixed way, and fail the mechanic in 1 or 2 fixed way with 1 or 2 fixed reason

It doesn't help that high end encounter also added enrage on top of heavily scripted mechanic fight which further demand the consistency of job/class's skill expression, as the consequnce, it eliminated a lot of deriative class/gameplay as well.

[Absurdity]

I wouldn't call Expert Mains above average players but I do think it's funny how casuals are getting majorly fugged by Body Check Trailwalker raid design.

The demand for these changes isn't coming from expert roulette mains, it's usually coming from people who do savage and care very much about their performance (most likely their logs as well) but in a rather self-serving way.
They want to be seen by others as great players, but they don't actually want to deal with the extra work that they would have to put in.
So all the little job intricacies and difficult optimizations get labeled as "clunk" that is totally the reason they're not achieving their full potential.