Can we have an honest conversation about the Scions? Dawn Trail

[Rekh]

Some of us are tired of them; after the ending in endwalker there's nothing else that can top that. Anything after that is just a vacation; the game's been feeling stale msq wise since then. And it continues into dawntrail (the leadup to it hasn't been as great as previous expansions).

[Katish]

Seeing your friends every few weeks still isn't "stalking" and being "glued" to you.

And the story is deliberately vague about time and not tracking it as it should be tracked. Sometimes they talk as if it really has been months since we last saw each other, but the game's artificial approach to time means that nobody has gotten any older.

That is debatable on the person...not everyone thinks the same. I love my friends irl, but I don't think I could see them every other week. I typically need like a three month period at least before wanting to go out, especially because rl does get in the way. That's why things are typically planned in advance...Although it's also true what type of friends are being talked about. I don't think I could ask a colleague out at all but I do see them as "friends" for instance.

As Rekt said, some of us are just tired of them.

[Garruss]

The scions are the main cast and the close friends to the Warrior of Light it would be daft to get rid of them all like this for "new characters"

[Rekh]

The scions are the main cast and the close friends to the Warrior of Light it would be daft to get rid of them all like this for "new characters"

You're not getting rid of them, they're just not a ball-chain on your ankles at the start of every expansion. In Guild Wars 2 some characters don't even see you at the start of the expansion but join later or are there at the start and never again until the end again. Some are just busy with other stuff and don't appear at all but get mentioned. Variety is the spice of life; I think that's one thing game devs tend to forget. They find a formula and stick to that formula like glue.

[Supersnow845]

The scions are the main cast and the close friends to the Warrior of Light it would be daft to get rid of them all like this for "new characters"

If they aren’t going to remove them can they at least give them some development, Y’shtola hasn’t had any development since like when she cast flow after the bloody banquet, graha had been stagnant since he came back from the first, urianger has never had any development and almost no Scion got anything useful in EW

Aranvald’s story with fordola in 5.5 was more development than half the scions have ever got to say nothing of how good sorrows of werlyt was about developing D tier importance characters

[Avidria]

If they aren’t going to remove them can they at least give them some development, Y’shtola hasn’t had any development since like when she cast flow after the bloody banquet, graha had been stagnant since he came back from the first, urianger has never had any development and almost no Scion got anything useful in EW

Aranvald’s story with fordola in 5.5 was more development than half the scions have ever got to say nothing of how good sorrows of werlyt was about developing D tier importance characters

I feel like I played a fundamentally different game than you and others saying similar things. I don't know how you could come to the conclusion that neither Urianger nor Y'shtola have had any development at all since ARR while having actually watched all of the story. Genuinely. Not liking it or not caring about it is one thing, but saying there was absolutely nothing is disingenuous at best.

Like I wouldn't even mind a new cast, I definitely would like to see things get changed up a bit, but this is a take I just flat out can't wrap my head around.

[Rithy255]

Even if "the scions are your friends" was a compelling argument, it's not like they have much to do that's interesting with them. It's really not a matter of "they're your friends!!!" it's a matter of issues with over using them in the story. (Even if so sometimes you don't need to always have your friends go follow you around...)

I don't mind the scions or a member of them showing up in a story, but the story needs to drive away from them, We all know 1. They have plot Armor so any stakes are always zero 2. They have been through character arcs, theirs not a lot more to explore with them 3. The Story cannot depend on the same group to hold it up.

People act like the Scions played a "major" role in every expansion, I disagree outside of alphinaud who was the only one who really followed the WOL, In HW the story often didn't even focus around the cast, stormblood didn't even use them that much mainly just the twins and a actual different cast, It's a more recent Shadowbringers thing where they're used as the main following cast the use of this was Good mind you it was nice to know more about them, Endwalker was fine but it was clear they were never in any danger and were quickly running out of ideas on where to actually take them.

[Supersnow845]

I feel like I played a fundamentally different game than you and others saying similar things. I don't know how you could come to the conclusion that neither Urianger nor Y'shtola have had any development at all since ARR while having actually watched all of the story. Genuinely. Not liking it or not caring about it is one thing, but saying there was absolutely nothing is disingenuous at best.

Like I wouldn't even mind a new cast, I definitely would like to see things get changed up a bit, but this is a take I just flat out can't wrap my head around.

What has fundamentally changed about urianger since ARR in terms of his impact on the story

He went from the quiet planning cunning Scholar who spoke like Shakespeare in ARR to exactly the same in EW but now he is an AST

I guess there is moonbreyda and the conclusion to that in labarynthos but honestly that reflected more on her character than his and she has been dead for 4 expansions

Gaius’s 2 travelling companions got more development in sorrows than half the scions

[CNitsah]

The big differnce between the scions and your actual friends is that you are not writing a story when you hang out with your friends. All those arguments about them being your friends and "you don't say to your friends you've seen them too much" are so out of place to me. Since the beginning of FFXIV, they constantly divided the group to not bloat the story with with characters. You mostly work alone or with 1 scion at a time in ARR. In HW they're lost, and they just come back one after the other the during expansion, and you often leave one or more on the side for some part of the story. Same in Stormblood, you only take Lyse and the twins in the east ; Alphinaud stay on the back most of the time and even Alisaie has a very small part for the whole Yanxia and Azim steppe parts.

In ShB, it's a little different, not only they spent month to years in the first, so they are your anchor to that world. But even there, they are brought back one at a time, and left out for parts of the story. The twins are put on the side during Il Mheg and Raktika part, while Y'shtola is out of the picture for first half of the extension. They know they can't deal with more than 4 or 5 characters at a time if they don't want to bloat the whole story. Endwalker made sense for them to be all there due to the fact it's the culmination of everything that happened previously. And even there, the group is often divided. It's divided in the beginning, you mostly stay with the twins during Garlemald, there is only Estinien Urianger and Y'shtola on the moon, it's a whole new group on elpis.

Even if I can see them do that (Estinien bieng his own team, and the other scions being in different teams go that way), they'll have to create a reason for that and make it credible. You don't take people at the other side of the world to just make they wait on side. In old expansions, you could easily give them something to do that related to the war with Garlemald or the Ascians to put them on the side for a while with one sentence. Here it's not possible without wondering was what the point of taking them with you to dismiss them as soon as you arrive. I feel like having 10 people (8 scions + Wuk Lamat and Erenville) to take tabs on would be too much, and will bloat the storytelling, or give us moment like during the EW patch (Thancred cameo in 6.4, that felt so "hey look, it's Thancred". Then he left). I also fear the whole sharlayan gang will serve as a way to spoonfeed you lore. That would be the easy answer to the "give them something to do" problem, but it would feel weird since they never put a foot there, and it would make more sense for the locals to do that.

Honestly, my pick would have been take Krile and G'raha, them being students of Baldesion and Thancred and Urianger for the other team (my guess is that Urianger studied at the same time as Wuk Lamat brother, and he was there when he accidentally revealed its identity. Plus Urianger being the only one we barely know anything about his young years outside of he liked books and was friend with Moenbryda, so there is potential there). Keep Y'shtola and Estinien away since they got the patches, and the twins away because the way they were included felt so forced.

That said, there is also a world where some of don't actually have a role in the actual story. I could see Alphinaud stay in the capital to learn about custom and how to help garlemald and Y'shtola studying things on the side having barely any role in the actual story. The promotional art kinda goes that way. Only Krile, Thancred, Urianger and the Warrior of light are on it, but as I mentionned, what would be the point of even bring them to do that. So wait and see. I really hope they're gonna surprise me.

I feel like I played a fundamentally different game than you and others saying similar things. I don't know how you could come to the conclusion that neither Urianger nor Y'shtola have had any development at all since ARR while having actually watched all of the story. Genuinely. Not liking it or not caring about it is one thing, but saying there was absolutely nothing is disingenuous at best.

Like I wouldn't even mind a new cast, I definitely would like to see things get changed up a bit, but this is a take I just flat out can't wrap my head around.

I kinda agree with what Avidria said. Estinien, Alphinaud Lyse and Thancred are the characters that got the share of the lion in term of characters development. Urianger got less, but still got some. There is the whole Moenbryda thing. But even if the pay off happened in EW, that's something that happened in ARR, and despite the cosmetic changes, he has been like he is for a while (at least HW patches). Y'shtola is kinda the same. Since the Matoya introduction, the character hasn't really evolved. Even the whole first shard didn't bring any real evolution with her. They do things, but those things don't actually make the character evolve.

Then there is the Alisaie case. I feel like Alisaie never got a real character arc to begin with. There is her relation with her grandfather in the Bahamut raids, but that's barely a character arc. After that, she just join the group, decide you are her best friend, and since then she is kinda there. I always felt she did not earn her place in the main roaster, and she especially did earn the right to gatekeep you like she does. I always feel weird because I can empathise with the relation of all the other scions with the wol but hers. Even Gaia that has barely been there feel like she somehow earned her place more than her. In Shadowbringer, they had the taste to give her own thing to care about, but it ends by the first dungeon and never really goes anywhere. Sure it leads to healing the tempered, but that's a story development, not a character one. There is also the Gabu thing, but that's doesn't lead to any character evolution either. I never understood why so many people love her when she is the most bland scion.

Not all the character need character evolution with every expansion, and I'm fine with how Y'shtola and Urianger are, but I still feel it's hard to give them a good new direction if they mostly interact with each other.

[Lyth]

Character development is a process by which the audience gains insight into a character over time as the writer fleshes them out. I'm not sure what new insights you're gaining into characters you've watched for ten years. It's going to be much less about 'character development' at this stage in the story's progression and more about seeing the main cast written into interesting scenarios.

It's fine to want to see more entertaining characters phased in, but you need proof of concept first. Estinien didn't start out as a regular, but he earned a place for himself on the main cast by being fun to watch. Erenville is another up and coming example, although I can't help but wonder if he has a death flag now, especially following the childhood friend reveal. People have been asking for 'consequences' after all, and Monkey's Paw logic applies here.

Either way, I think it's less about swapping in a completely new cast, and more about phasing in characters to become regulars when they show potential based off of bit parts. I'd be in favor of a split scenario to do this, but I think this is going to happen naturally anyways given that there's already two parties, two halves of the map, and a minimum of two expansions to explore those halves in.