Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

[Valence]

I do not and will never condone damage output differences between jobs in exchange for one being better at its role than another (a tank tanking less but outputting more damage for example). In mind mind all jobs shouldn't be voluntarily imbalanced like that, and this includes ranged taxes and raise taxes. If a tank is better at self heals, then find something equally interesting for another instead of reverting to more damage.

[rawker]

I do not and will never condone damage output differences between jobs in exchange for one being better at its role than another (a tank tanking less but outputting more damage for example). In mind mind all jobs shouldn't be voluntarily imbalanced like that, and this includes ranged taxes and raise taxes. If a tank is better at self heals, then find something equally interesting for another instead of reverting to more damage.

Sadly, the WAR community doesn't want anything but overwhelming damage, outstanding sustain, cheesing mechanics through invuln, and most recently not needing any healers to sustain the party.

[GoatOfWar]

I do not and will never condone damage output differences between jobs in exchange for one being better at its role than another (a tank tanking less but outputting more damage for example). In mind mind all jobs shouldn't be voluntarily imbalanced like that, and this includes ranged taxes and raise taxes. If a tank is better at self heals, then find something equally interesting for another instead of reverting to more damage.

War was fine doing less damage though, and it has the best version of every tank cooldown.
Either it should be nerfed into the absolute *DIRT* utility wise, or it simply does a little bit less damage.
I don't want endless powecreep and homogenisation that will strip the jobs from their identity.
I'm not talking about phys range or casters. But if you want to include those, then you'll have to give melees a res, extra party mits and free permanent uptime too (More homogenisation)
Because otherwise the job without the utility just falls behind. Just like we're seeing in the tank role.

So, will we just make every tank invuln the same cooldown, let them all double dip their personal mits with other players like Warrior can, give them all blood whetting and shake it off (overtime) Furthering the powecreep.
Do we nerf the absolute shit out of War (i'd be down for this tbh) so that it no longer has a chokehold on every single tank niche. (This will likely still result in homogenisation in the long run however)
Or do we simply let War deal a little bit less dps, that never really matters anyways?

These are your only 3 options.

[Aravell]

I think it would be really funny if they reverted tank sustain to Stormblood levels.

A good WAR back then could still solo 20-30% of a dungeon boss, but a lot of people were screaming about how WAR was ruined and they can no longer sustain themselves anymore, all because they removed Bloodbath from WAR.

[HyperiusUltima]

So, will we just make every tank invuln the same cooldown, let them all double dip their personal mits with other players like Warrior can, give them all blood whetting and shake it off (overtime) Furthering the powecreep.
Do we nerf the absolute shit out of War (i'd be down for this tbh) so that it no longer has a chokehold on every single tank niche. (This will likely still result in homogenisation in the long run however)
Or do we simply let War deal a little bit less dps, that never really matters anyways?

These are your only 3 options.

I'm actually down for different parts of different options.

For the first option, I think having every tank share the same Invuln CD will streamline Raid Design a bit better and keep it from warping around WAR's 4m Holmgang. Having everyone at a 5m medium means that in 12m fights WAR no longer has an edge over every other tank just because of CD. This would also bring PLD's Hallowed Ground to where it should've been in the first place, considering a 6m Cooldown is insane for what many people seem to mistake as "The best Invuln in the game" just because it prevents damage from being taken. Sure, it does that, but having 6m because of that doesn't matter when other Tank Invulns do the same thing, except you're making Healers fix the damage(namely WHM with Benediction). PLD at most right now gets anywhere from 1-2 uses in a fight, GNB/DRK 2-3, and WAR anywhere from 3-4.

For the second option, nerfing WAR's healing capabilities is on the top of my docket and should be the first thing to go: Remove the healing from Bloodwhetting and Nascent Flash. Boom. Done. No longer a problem to the point we start excluding healers in 4-man content for speedruns(in fact requires them then) and does not invalidate normal party compositions in 8-man raids and Savage.

Third option? Honestly, I think considering that WAR does not teach anything in particular that the other tanks do( PLD teaches proper mitigation, DRK teaches Resource Management, GNB teaches Weaving between GCDs) if you're going to look at every tank they should do the least damage. Considering they bring the most mitigation options(eHP options with Thrill, big self-recovery with Equilibrium, 30% and 20% alongside a tertiary that is 10%+10%(13%) if well-timed and shielded, as well as Shake it Off(over time)? WAR has more than enough to operate - and then some. Heck, even if you revert Shake to its previous form where it only provided the shield, WAR would not be underperforming mitigation wise.

[Oizen]

I do not and will never condone damage output differences between jobs in exchange for one being better at its role than another (a tank tanking less but outputting more damage for example). In mind mind all jobs shouldn't be voluntarily imbalanced like that, and this includes ranged taxes and raise taxes. If a tank is better at self heals, then find something equally interesting for another instead of reverting to more damage.

Well then if all the tanks are doing the exact same damage it raises a lot of probems:
-Why are GNB and DRK investing so much into other attacks to do the same as press fell cleave
-Why are GNB and DRK so significantly weaker in terms of mitigation and raid wide utility, why is it acceptable that DM and HoL can basically be taken off your hotbar in a good amount of content
-Why don't GNB and DRK get shared mitigation on their shortmits on another ally, why don't they get to double dip their short mit and get enough healing from it not even being applied to them to shrug off autos indefinitely.
-How come PLD,DRK and GNB don't get to use their invuls 3+ times a fight and warp savage fights around it

If Damage output isn't a real balancing factor then we're basically forced to homogenize further to the point where all the tanks are capable of the exact same things.
That said, I don't get why damage can't be a balancing factor.

Parserot speedrunners are going to force themselves onto the best jobs no matter what for any level of advantage, I honestly couldn't care less if they're not having fun. Balancing the game for them has lead things to get as bad as they are right now, and they're still miserable. Its a losing game no matter how you slice it. The concept of big damage vs big utility works well enough for DPS, I really can't see a real reason it can't work for Tank.

[Valence]

Well then if all the tanks are doing the exact same damage it raises a lot of probems:
-Why are GNB and DRK investing so much into other attacks to do the same as press fell cleave
-Why are GNB and DRK so significantly weaker in terms of mitigation and raid wide utility, why is it acceptable that DM and HoL can basically be taken off your hotbar in a good amount of content
-Why don't GNB and DRK get shared mitigation on their shortmits on another ally, why don't they get to double dip their short mit and get enough healing from it not even being applied to them to shrug off autos indefinitely.
-How come PLD,DRK and GNB don't get to use their invuls 3+ times a fight and warp savage fights around it

If Damage output isn't a real balancing factor then we're basically forced to homogenize further to the point where all the tanks are capable of the exact same things.
That said, I don't get why damage can't be a balancing factor.

Parserot speedrunners are going to force themselves onto the best jobs no matter what for any level of advantage, I honestly couldn't care less if they're not having fun. Balancing the game for them has lead things to get as bad as they are right now, and they're still miserable. Its a losing game no matter how you slice it. The concept of big damage vs big utility works well enough for DPS, I really can't see a real reason it can't work for Tank.

1) Because SE decided to design easy and hard jobs, which I also despise. It brought us DNC and SMN on the DPS side, but you have probably also seen it with WHM/SGE vs AST/SCH.
2) Nothing of this is acceptable either.
3) Same thing
4) ditto

We're not forced to do anything. We can vary defensive tools in very unique ways each, make rotations actually unique (instead of GNB being PLD with ogcd and DRK being WAR with ogcd, same thing for healers: DPS can do it, so could support), etc. Total damage output is a red herring and a can of worms: either you don't have dps checks and the better job at tanking will be favored, or either dps checks are a thing and then lower dps outputs will be underappreciated. It's even worse when it comes to actual job difficulty discrepancies as seen with over half the raiding playerbase playing SMN and DNC in their respective roles being the path of least resistance, since dps checks aren't hard enough to warrant harsher dps comps with BLM. It's also the exact same root cause for rphys jobs being taxed on damage for not having positional or casting considerations and having to use a crutch on party bonuses to keep being included in parties. It's not a conundrum you can solve while staying true to that fluke of a paradigm.

If anything, focusing on damage as a so called tool to bring job identity is distracting development of actually interesting support toolkits, on top of being absolutely bland in terms of flavor.

[Oizen]

So you'd prefer we simply the dps rotations of DRK and GNB while giving them Nascent Flash, Shake it off and Holmgang? Because there isn't much alternative if we're saying everyone needs to be doing the exact same damage and effort level.

[Aravell]

It's very unlikely that they can make every job do the exact same damage, some variation should be expected.

Although, high utility should be balanced with lower damage, but not so low that they'd get kicked on sight. Like a 5-6% difference from highest to lowest should be fair, not the 10%+ we had in Asphodelos.

The problem the physical ranged are facing is not because of supportive abilities being taxed, it's that their free movement is being taxed despite melee also being capable of free movement while the boss is big enough for the melee to not lose uptime.

[Supersnow845]

I think that larger damage swings should be fine but only because they should be able to be compensated in a different way

Like if they want to continue this ridiculous sustain on WAR then they should nerf its damage 10+% below DRK but only because it opens avenues for the healer to potentially do more damage because they aren’t babying the WAR

But that also leaks into fight design which I don’t think the devs are good enough for