Moon Miqo'te Face 4 feedback

[Cheapshot]

I never said that the pictures were misleading at all, nor did I say that your observations were incorrect on the changes made.

Why do you keep replying to me to refute things I didn’t say? This is the second time you’ve put words in my mouth to argue against. Like you keep adding words to what I’ve said that aren’t there. You keep saying “I never said ______” and both times I’m squinting at my own post trying to see where I accused you of those things? My words are quoted right in your posts so anyone can see what I’m actually saying. I’ve been very direct. Are you just misreading/misunderstanding or is this purposeful? I’ve been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but it really feels purposeful at this point.

When you say “I’m not here in good faith” what you really mean is “I hope people think you are a troll and won’t listen to you anymore”. Right?

No, it’s because of stuff like this:

Yes, let’s see how many pages 4 people can get to.

I’m also watching this thread to see if anything meaningful happens. I’m sure the few people keeping this thread alive are going to keep me informed on every tiny detail/change that happens to face 4.

And absolutely anyone who reads these can tell they’re passive aggressive and rude. If you’re trying to claim they weren’t now, I don’t know who would buy that. I absolutely do not understand why you couldn’t share your opinion without all of this? Why all the unnecessary stuff about the number of people in the thread or the number of “likes”, and the rudeness?

The way you engaged in here just feels so so unnecessary. Your opinion of liking the new features better is perfectly valid and I would have happily engaged with you on that, like I have with others in this thread and other threads. I just don’t understand why you went about things like this.

[Rueby]

Snip+
Besides the lashes, most of these things are not noticeable to most people, even the people who play face 4. I’m not a mean girl for saying it nor am I bad for replying in a thread about feedback. When you say “I’m not here in good faith” what you really mean is “I hope people think you are a troll and won’t listen to you anymore”. Right?

You initiated hostility out of literally nowhere, unprovoked, people called you out on your attitude then you cry wolf? You're not the victim here, conversely I don't think anyone is. You're just someone who started acting up for no reason, got called out, got really defensive about it. I don't think you can convince anyone that your behavior wasn't passive aggressive.

I imagine someone like OP to be a good/nice person, who is respectful, mindful, kind and willing to engage with others with curtsey and grace. That's why I love engaging with them, I find them really inspiring, they can express their thoughts well with paintovers and I do tend to paint spontaneously so I lack that kind of structure. I'm inspired both by them and the JP thread, I love engaging with people here because it's about something I love, it's not like you think that I'm raging and malding and pulling my hair out.

You seem to have assigned malice to us? But you also seem to have an issue with probably me and OP which is very weird. The thing is, I really love engaging with people here. My knowledge is limited to art and even then it's not much, Cheapshot has been informative and I feel like I learn something new through my interactions with people in this thread, and if I can provide closure with some of the knowledge that I have, then I'm happy to do so.

I won't allow anyone to try and make me feel bad for posting often about something I enjoy just because in your head you think we're misleading (you? the entire thread has been on topic until you initiated hostilities, devs? even though someone already told you that those who collect feedback are thorough)

I don't think you've been very nice in your last few posts- not for stating an 'opinion' or 'posting' but because you had a bad attitude while stating that opinion, sorry, that's just how it looks on the outside. Being snide and dismissive of someone's opinion isn't exactly a good look for trying to 'express your opinion'.

I'm sure there's people who like the changes like yourself, and people like us who dislike the changes and I'm sure both parties can express their opinions in a respectful and mindful manner, not with unwarranted sarcastic and passive aggressive backhanded remarks. For someone who says that they don't care how many pages this thread gets, you seem to care alot.

Cheers and farewell. Hope this gave you some measure of closure.

[celestiyall]

Walks in several days later with coffee like ????? lmao

Clan marks moved slightly on the face under eye- is this really an issue? It’s not to me

Love how this gamer has no reading comprehension, I was talking about the positioning of facepaint on the face not clan marks, and had only mentioned clan marks in relation to where the facepaint now stood on the face??? Of course it's not gonna be relevant to you if you don't use face paint that is being warped around the eyes by how the eyelids are being pulled down.... which was the point of my post in response to Cheapshot's post about the eyelid warping. shakes my head tbh

Anyways kudos to y'all for handling this conversation so gracefully when someone is obviously trying to stir the pot. Not sure why people don't understand the concept of "feedback is necessary so EVERYONE can be happy".

[Turtledeluxe]

This thread has a few things that share complaints common across many races such as lips in general being scuffed. Shapes and textures have changed. It's unclear how much of this is driven by the lighting or texture load issues, as sometimes lips appear better in the benchmark footage itself. Things like gloss vs matte and lip shape should be toggles ,not an either / or situation. Same with eyelashes and otherwise forced makeup appearance. If a player doesn't want to look like they're wearing eyeliner or fake lashes, there should just be a simple toggle for this. I just think all around, the new update should've implemented some toggle features as opposed to just deciding to take way fangs, change eyebrows completely, change character expressions, etc. The character creator itself is outdated and doing another round of finalized faces imo wasn't the move for this update if player satisfaction was the goal.

Like for example regarding expressions, I think it's a little dumb we have to pick a face for that in the first place. Wouldn't it be ideal if picked a face and decided your individual character's expression separately?I wonder if something like that is possible to implement reasonably.

[Rueby]

snip

The complaints here are also present in other faces across the board, and the entire complaints about this boils down to 'options related to shape changes', the additions weren't optional or new, they were replacements to already limited options. I doubt anyone would be unhappy with additions being 'optional', after all I think it's something that'd satisfy everyone. I find it odd that adding more options to CC isn't somehow earlier on their list..But maybe technical limitations?

I'm not experienced enough to speak of these technical limitations, I'm sure there's other people who have interesting things to say....

Slightly unrelated tangent since we're speaking of options, but I've been wondering if maybe the lack of options is linked to either of these things, a perspective? on upstream bandwidth?, hardware limitation and another on the code limitation.

They always come up that they're limited by this or that that's why it's hard to get new additions, I can only think of the belt removal when EW was released to make space for other things? I also wonder why they added an entirely new face for male midlander that looks abit like the EW WoL (y'know with the stuble) rather than adding that option to the existing face.

I honestly find the subject really curious, but I don't know much. It seems rather simple to 'just upgrade' the hardware, but I think the thing about downtime is actually a valid concern.

Someone mentioned that the new way they've redesigned the meshes maaaaaybe might unlock the potential for sliders down the line but this is a huge cope in my unprofessional opinion though I'd love it honestly. (I can't seem to find that post though sorry)

[celestiyall]

yoship says thanks for all the screenshots illustrating the problems, everyone :3

[AluneTempest]

I don't expect them to make bigs changes to the faces in general, but probably those weird textures and dead eyes will be fixed, i think we will get something similar to the benchmark test itself but in character creator and finally true high res textures.
Anyway, all of the effort you people put in find the problems here is not in vain, this is really good to see.

[Cheapshot]

I read the new update letter. It was again quite vague with the language but I'm glad for the communication at all, and saw some good stuff in there. Nice to see the nod to the people putting in the effort to make images. Sounds like they found those helpful after-all. I don't know if we're going to see the changes we want necessarily but I'll be cautiously optimistic. I regret not adding the stuff about the problems with the lash texture and the bad eyelid geometry to the OP but I just haven't had as much time to check in here recently. We'll have to wait and see what all gets done.

Someone mentioned that the new way they've redesigned the meshes maaaaaybe might unlock the potential for sliders down the line but this is a huge cope in my unprofessional opinion though I'd love it honestly. (I can't seem to find that post though sorry)

That was me. Using shapekeys for facial features could in theory allow that. I was realistic though and said we shouldn't expect it. Maybe some day. Unless their animation system prevents it for some reason.

[Iscah]

As for the lashes, I don’t think its an accident or anything. I think they were trying to cover the area between the eyeball and the top of the eye.



And to be fair to them, I’m not fully sure why that was the way it was either. You dont normally see that much, uh, flesh? Between the eyeball and the upper eyelid. So they likely viewed it as a mistake, but how do you fix it without changing the shape of the eye? I expect changing the curve of the lash to hug the eyeball way too close was their solution since they couldn’t spend the polys to create a lid edge. Then they made them really long and uniform and went heavy on the mascara to just hide the area.

I don't necessarily know what the proper solution to that is, although I would prefer the eye to continue to look a bit unusual than have these huge false lashes that massively change the feel of the face. I got used to the way the eyes look.

I've been looking at all of the character faces in the character creator trying to piece together what's going on with this, and came to the same conclusion.

Additionally, when you look at all of the different characters you can see that the weird "eyelid gap" is a darkened version of the individual skin tone in the current game but for the benchmark appearance it has in most cases either been covered with relocated eyelashes or been filled in with black makeup – even for characters who have minimal gap and no makeup previously, like male Midlanders.

My best guess at the intention for the gap is that it may do some visual trickery with making the eye visible from more angles or something, or perhaps just a weird stylistic choice.

I suspect that in at least some situations the answer might be to adjust the shape of the eye itself to better match the space marked out by the eyelash line and just leave a thinner rim for the eyelids. I'm not sure if it would work for faces like this where the eye is so fully exposed, but I think it is a solution for some other faces with deep-set eyes like male Miqo'te.

I've been trying to put feedback into the Japanese forum thread (with an online translator and a bit of trial and error when the web browser translates the result back to English and I can see where the phrases got mangled) and I actually borrowed your eye picture the other day to explain my thoughts on the eye changes there, because I was intending to make a similar demonstration but then yours was exactly what I needed.

A couple of posts below that you can also see my illustrated thoughts on the potential for altering the eye shape of male Miqo'te to match the illusion they've had all along.

(I have clearly been wrangling with too much Japanese lately when I'm now defaulting to writing "Mikotte" instead of Miqo'te...)

Thanks! That’s super valuable information. I hadn’t thought of comparing a before and after with facepaint. It’s really feeling like our face didn’t get the same level of care as others. I don’t know how I always get so lucky. Y-Y

It seems there have been issues all around with face paint on the new faces. They've warped a bit and some have ended up higher on the face. I've seen a few people comment on the "painted eyebrows" facepaint and a few of the larger patterns.

[Cheapshot]

It seems there have been issues all around with face paint on the new faces. They've warped a bit and some have ended up higher on the face. I've seen a few people comment on the "painted eyebrows" facepaint and a few of the larger patterns.

It’s not too surprising tbh considering the topology of the new heads varies more than it initially appeared to. Lots of features are subtly moved so nothing is going to line up exactly as before. Eyes being a few millimetres deeper set, or a tiny bit further apart isn’t very noticeable until you have a bunch of solid colour graphics on your face providing a much more visually obvious point of reference. This’ll probably remain the same going forward since asking them to make sure everything lines up exactly as before is just way way too unreasonable an expectation. It’s why I focused my comparisons on the shape differences of individual facial features instead of the face as a whole.

Also good luck on the JP forums! Sounds like a lot of work!