Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[GoatOfWar]

I'm just going to leave it here, too many people are responding to me and i can't keep up with it.
And it doesn't look like either side will budge.
As a final statement, i agree that tanks need their sustain and survivability nerfed. As a former healer main, i also wish healers had more dps buttons and a bit more to heal.
But i just don't think healers should have higher damage ceilings. Because this will further cripple the narrow design space in the tank roster.

[Nizzi]

You don't have to like what i've got to say.
But this is about the dps throughput, and yeah, doing dps as a healer is objectively braindead. And the other poster wants optimised 11111111111111111111111111121111111111111111 gameplay to be worth more than a tank's dps rotation.
I'm not talking about healing or tanking at large, both are piss easy in this game.

it's not a matter of "not liking" what you're saying, it's the fact that what you're saying is nonsense. healers were literally doing HIGHER dps than tanks were last expansion and literally none of what you said was the case. the tank role was not fundamentally broken by that at all. i'm even of the opinion that number tuning doesnt matter, idc if we're above or below tanks numerically because it doesnt matter but what you're saying would happen literally wouldn't

"objectively braindead" by what metric? if you actually believe that DPSing on a tank in something like pantokrator or looper in p1 of TOP is harder than it is on a healer, i can't take that seriously. full uptime DPS for a healer requires so much more effort than it does for a tank it's not even funny in like every fight in this expansion lol

[ty_taurus]

Why on earth would you ever pick Drk or Gnb over War/Pld when War and Pld can help optimise the healer dps, and in turn provide a higher group damage ceiling than the other 2?
It just doesn't work. It will leave *no* design space for tanks.

Okay, I think I understand what you're trying to say now. I don't think you did a good job of explaining this if true, but you're trying to say that non-healers that can heal would allow the healers to spend slightly less GCDs on healing and thus squeeze out more DPS? Assuming that would be a concern in the first place, it wouldn't be specifically a tank thing, so I'm not sure why you were trying to make it about tanks. There are DPS jobs with healing resources as well. Why would that be an issue for tank design space and not physical ranged? Or caster?

But there are a number of reasons why that wouldn't be true even with everything else we currently have staying relatively the same, more than I care to list. But the one I'd say is the most telling would be that the amount of GCDs you'd conserve for DPS is not going to lead to a particularly high amount of increased damage. The damage Scholar and Astrologian gain from raid buffs is likely far more valuable than a few extra personal DPS spells throughout a fight.

But in case you missed the literal 5 years of arguments going around, the people who are talking about healer damage balance here are also the ones saying that healers shouldn't have faceroll 111111 DPS combos. I'm not sure why you were completely disregarding that massive point because it's quite integral to the conversation. Because expanding each healer's DPS arsenal will consequently take potency out of their spammable attack spell to be redirected into new attacks with limited uses. In case you missed the last several pages, I specifically have been talking about how constantly increasing the potency of our basic attack spell is hurting the healer experience and adding way more pressure than is necessary for healers to maintain DPS uptime. If we slashed the potency of those attacks and put that potency into other parts of the kit, that also circumvents your worry because gaining a few extra Glares and Broils would mean far less anyway. Moreover, wouldn't you just balance the outgoing damage of jobs without healing support to be at least a little higher than the jobs that do have it? Something we already see to some degree?

Also, what you're essentially talking about is synergy, and a relatively mild form of it at that. FFXIV has had far more egregious forms of synergy, and yet despite that, not only was every job viable back then, but had decent play rates. If Monks were clearing Savage during Stormblood and getting into PF groups with ease despite the Dragoon + Bard meta being a thing, then no, Dark Knight and Gunbreaker would have absolutely nothing to worry about.

[Aravell]

Okay, I think I understand what you're trying to say now. I don't think you did a good job of explaining this if true, but you're trying to say that non-healers that can heal would allow the healers to spend slightly less GCDs on healing and thus squeeze out more DPS? Assuming that would be a concern in the first place, it wouldn't be specifically a tank thing, so I'm not sure why you were trying to make it about tanks. There are DPS jobs with healing resources as well. Why would that be an issue for tank design space and not physical ranged? Or caster?

I'm pretty sure I also said that the fight design should try and force the healers to use their GCD heals. I don't think it's quite understood how much pressure you'd have to exert to force 2 healers to start dipping into GCD heals, Nascent Flash/Shake it Off and Intervention/Divine Veil would do barely anything to alleviate that kind of theoretical pressure. Not to mention, if one of said healing pressure happens to come in the form of a massive ticking bleed, Dark Missionary and Heart of Light would be way more valuable than straight shields like WAR/PLD has.

[Sebazy]

Not a single MMO i've played made healers outdps the tanks under any circumstance, let alone one where the healing checks are so minimal in FF.
It doesn't really matter how you try to contextualise it. For me it's a hard no. And if it ever does happen, i'll just play dps instead. Because it would be stupid.
Healer dps rotations are and will always be simple. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher dps.
I get that tanks are OP and need nerfs but let's not overreach on the demands. If you genuinely think they should, then we're done talking.
If it happens, i won't be the one tanking for you anymore.

Besides, this would a one way ticket to a PLD/WAR meta where GNB and DRK will not be viable.

Er, Everquest? Shaman and Druids?

In all seriousness though. I honestly couldn't care less where my damage is in relation to anyone (With the provision that solo content is at least bearable). My DPS dropping in relation to tanks a few expacs back made no difference to me. What I do care about is how unbearably monotonous is to play the job in content that isn't Savage prog.

DPS numbers aren't the problem here, the fact that Cookie Clicker genuinely offers up a more compelling and deep gameplay experience than healers get at this point is just shameful on CBU3's part.

[hunter2]

The described situation of healers having a lower damage floor and higher damage ceiling than tanks is exactly what existed in Shadowbringers. I wasn't raiding then to know if it was a problem regarding the tank meta. In Endwalker tanks are comfortably ahead of healers, as they were in Stormblood too afaik.

Personally I don't really care, I think the only important thing is that jobs within a role are balanced and that dps jobs output a lot more damage than support. I just want some more buttons so healing downtime doesn't put me to sleep.

[rawker]

That is why healer dps needs to be buffed so that the ceiling is higher

[Supersnow845]

The described situation of healers having a lower damage floor and higher damage ceiling than tanks is exactly what existed in Shadowbringers. I wasn't raiding then to know if it was a problem regarding the tank meta. In Endwalker tanks are comfortably ahead of healers, as they were in Stormblood too afaik.

Personally I don't really care, I think the only important thing is that jobs within a role are balanced and that dps jobs output a lot more damage than support. I just want some more buttons so healing downtime doesn't put me to sleep.

The thing people seem to be missing is there is no way that healers doing more damage can cause a tank imbalance specifically because healers have never been encroaching on the tank role like tanks are on the healer role right now and tank encroachment is worse than it’s ever been

If the healers cause more damage it still doesn’t change the fact that you need 2 tanks specifically because nobody else can do the tank role

Healers doing enough “more damage” over the the tanks to induce healing heavy tank comps to facilitate healer damage both ignores the fact that tank sustain was far weaker in ShB and discounts DPS based healing options

You were literally never bringing a healing heavy tank comp for the reason of facilitating healer DPS

[Deceptus]

If the healers cause more damage it still doesn’t change the fact that you need 2 tanks specifically because nobody else can do the tank role

Healers doing enough “more damage” over the the tanks to induce healing heavy tank comps to facilitate healer damage both ignores the fact that tank sustain was far weaker in ShB and discounts DPS based healing options

You were literally never bringing a healing heavy tank comp for the reason of facilitating healer DPS

Basically the reason that a healer is the first one dropped from groups after prog because they're both simply not needed in groups that have a functioning brain and can pick up the healer specific mechanic on the fly.

Which said mechanics only exist in Savage or above level content, where you need to be relatively decent to participate in.

[Aravell]

The described situation of healers having a lower damage floor and higher damage ceiling than tanks is exactly what existed in Shadowbringers. I wasn't raiding then to know if it was a problem regarding the tank meta. In Endwalker tanks are comfortably ahead of healers, as they were in Stormblood too afaik.

Having raided for the entirety of Shadowbringers, I'll say that it didn't affect tanks in any way. While WHM had a higher personal damage output than all the tanks, you'd be hard-pressed to find any WHM that was outdamaging a tank in pug groups. This is because WHM was designed to lose damage when healing and moving.

But then again, we also have to acknowledge that tank sustain was only boosted to ludicrous levels in Endwalker along with healer getting more and more damage neutral tools. If the healer role does not operate under an expected loss, then yes, tanks should do more damage. But if the healer role loses damage by healing and fights are tuned so they have to heal often enough, then it's fair for healers to have a higher damage ceiling than the tanks, who have no such concerns of losing damage to do their primary role.

There's also the concern that in order to keep tanks above healers in damage output, they have to move the DPS jobs further up as well, because tanks operate at no loss of damage other than from a lack of skill on their own part. That discrepancy between the highest and lowest damage output can cause problems in solo content. If solo instances are tuned so the highest damage DPS job gets to see most of the fight, that would artificially lengthen the very same instanced fight for anyone progressing the MSQ on a healer. You can see this happening for the Zenos fight at the end of Endwalker, doing that fight on SCH and AST was an absolute slog.