Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[ty_taurus]

It's funny because there's a lot that could be done to address feedback without making things "impossible for players with not as high skill level to clear."

In regards to DPS, DPS on healers does not matter in regards to clearing because almost all of FFXIV's content's pass or fail checks fall on mechanic knowledge, not DPS checks. It's only in EX and up that we even have enrages, and even then, healers have so much leniency when it comes to damage output because the deal the least damage, and are not expected to have 100% DPS uptime anyway. And what's ironic about the amount of DPS a healer does need to put out in order for their team to clear, ironically, purging DPS abilities from healers and loading all that responsibility onto one single attack spell has actually made it more punishing to DPS. Excluding old Cleric Stance, the more potency you load onto a spammed attack, the more pressure there is to have a higher DPS uptime as a healer. The less potency you load onto a spammed attack and instead redirect that onto other attacks that cannot be spammed, the less pressure there is to maintain uptime. So adding a few more attacks and siphoning that potency away from your Glare, Malefic, Dosis, Broil spells will actually make DPSing as a healer less demanding to a point.

And for MP management, that's only true if MP is always required to do anything. Something I as well as Roe have discussed time and time again is if you reduce the MP cost of your most basic spells... on White Mage, for example, if Glare, Cure II, and Medica at least had a 0 MP cost, then you'd always have a backup plan. This gives designers the freedom to have more dynamic things to spend MP on because even if you overspend, you simply hurt your optimization and not the party's survivability.

It just baffles me because finding solutions to problems like this is basically the definition of being a game designer. I know they're capable of coming up with solutions that would be a better happy medium than the dogshit healers of Shadowbringers and Endwalker. I just hope if not for DT, then one day, they'll put in the modicum of effort you'd need to start finding those solutions.

[ty_taurus]

new healers that play healers now have as much as a say as ones whove been playing for a decade, seniority doesnt give your words more weight

There are still new healers that have called out healer design for being awful, you know. We've seen it multiple times over on the healer threads in the past. This isn't just a veteran problem.

[AmiableApkallu]

A increased complexity of the healers damage will just end up with healers hemogenized into the way tanks play. one hotbar weaved in heals in mit between a damage combo.

That's only true if someone's brain is so addled and rotted by FFLogs that they can no longer comprehend the idea, "This GCD spent healing is better for the party's total DPS in the long run than if I spammed my nuke yet again." Though, to be fair, current job design and encounter design might have also addled one's brain into forgetting that GCD heals exist and could have a place if only someone tried.

(And why is it always either "1-2-3 combo" or "plays like a tank"? )

[Maltothoris]

That's only true if someone's brain is so addled and rotted by FFLogs that they can no longer comprehend the idea, "This GCD spent healing is better for the party's total DPS in the long run than if I spammed my nuke yet again." Though, to be fair, current job design and encounter design might have also addled one's brain into forgetting that GCD heals exist and could have a place if only someone tried.

(And why is it always either "1-2-3 combo" or "plays like a tank"? )

It is humorous when people say that when it would be much better to either make it either like a blm or rdm but of course not fully expanded.

[Deceptus]

new healers that play healers now have as much as a say as ones whove been playing for a decade, seniority doesnt give your words more weight

It does a bit, it does give them more validity.

Would you trust the new 16 year old driver, or the 26 year old who's been driving for 10 years.

People who have seen the evolution of healers over the past decade have a different completely perspective than those who just joined in Endwalker.

[Aravell]

A increased complexity of the healers damage will just end up with healers hemogenized into the way tanks play. one hotbar weaved in heals in mit between a damage combo.

We did have a more complex kit as healers pre-ShB, this is not something we're making up out of thin air with our imagination, we actually had it, and healers played nothing like tanks.

The biggest problem is that people have gotten so much brainrot from the current design of healers that they refuse to believe anything other than the current design of "Use every GCD on damage and only heal with OGCDs" can work.

As for it being "not what everyone wants", can the dev team only make changes if everyone is united on it? Did they make sure everyone wanted what we have now? Did every SAM want Kaiten gone? Did every DRG and AST player shout for a rework?

[Absurdity]

People who have seen the evolution of healers over the past decade have a different completely perspective than those who just joined in Endwalker.

It's not even about being old enough to have experienced previous iterations of the game.
The new player, who is still busy doing MSQ, rarely has any experience with how the jobs really work or even how fight mechanics play out on average. It is also entirely possible for their opinion to shift entirely once they've gained that experience.

You can't really give the same weight to someone who knows exactly how healers play at all difficulty levels and someone who hasn't used any abilities besides Cure 1/2 and Medica 2.

[Maltothoris]

As for it being "not what everyone wants", can the dev team only make changes if everyone is united on it? Did they make sure everyone wanted what we have now? Did every SAM want Kaiten gone? Did every DRG and AST player shout for a rework?

To add to this, did every ninja wanted to turn trick attack into a 2 min cd? Did Astros wanted minor arcana to go back to its inferior stormblood version? Did healers want most of what they got in 5.0?

They need to takes risks, Sure sometimes it will blow up in your face but then you can take what you learn and improve on it. Something that sadly CBU3 is kind of lacking in.

[Ceetee]

A increased complexity of the healers damage will just end up with healers hemogenized into the way tanks play. one hotbar weaved in heals in mit between a damage combo.

im not sure if this is what /everyone/ wants,

Incredibly based change actually. If healers worked like tanks currently do, I would no longer be a former healer. I was a SCH main from 2.0 launch, all the way up to the first boss of Holminster Switch, at which point I hated the changes so much that I left the dungeon and dropped healing entirely, leveling GNB from 60 to 71 just so I could do the expansion as that instead of what I'd been using for half a decade at that point, and now dread leveling healers each expansion with healing always being the last role quest I get to.

I cannot stress enough that this is not hyperbole, it is not exageration. I hated the way my main job played SO MUCH that I left the dungeon and spent early access grinding 11 levels before getting back to MSQ.

They sure as hell didn't check with everyone the last time they made sweeping changes to everyone, why would they do so this time?

But yes actually. I would genuinely LOVE if they reversed the current healing kits, gave us 5 healing related skills (spamable cure GCD, AoE Heal, and then like 3 healing GCDs) and then had everything else be a regular ass class kit. So much of the issue right now is that healers are playing a fundamentally different game.

Or heck, just make us a normal DPS but if we target an ally our action heals them, so where other classes are focusing on weaving in mitigation or damage buffs, we are weaving in target changes, while still maintaining our gameplay flow the same way every other job does.

I genuinely don't care what they do. Summoner, Machinist, and Ninja have all gotten multiple major overhaul over the years until they found reasonably comfortable spots (even if I am one of the weirdos that misses gun/bow mage). If they make a change and it doesn't stick, that's fine. It doesn't have to be that way forever. They can just change it again.

After all, they already have, and that's why we are here in the first place.

[Supersnow845]

I genuinely have no idea how you can look at tanks and healers and come to conclusion that tanks are not unequivocally better designed in every single way

The only arguments you could potentially make in reverse would basically amount to

1) healers don’t have the balance problem of WAR being better than everyone else at everything (which ironically unbalanced healers more than it does the other tanks)
2) healers still have a good chunk of their kit designed around their primary function while tanks it’s basically an afterthought (which is a pointless argument considering healers don’t use what they have)

At this point healers playing like tanks would be an astronomical improvement