Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Aravell]

Coils was designed very differently to modern fights and even then still had a lot of damage done by the healers (especially the SCH)

Regardless you are acting like we wouldn’t want that. Take an old clear video, look at all the times the healers spent healing or idling to recover mana vs all the times they do damage/sit in cleric stance, I bet you 99/100 people on here would prefer that current distribution than what we have now………that still doesn’t preclude reverting the boring as sin DPS button changes

You can tell people "Hey, we want both more damage options and also healing requirements to go up " until you're blue in the face, you'll still get people accusing you of wanting healers to be a DPS or people who act like increasing healing requirements is mutually exclusive with diversifying our damage options.

[Maltothoris]

That's funny too because Coils had plenty of DPS buttons on the healers in ARR for my personal tastes too. Looks like FF14 is that MMO as well

That is quite true. SCH had ruin, ruin 2, bio, bio 2, miasma, miasma 2, shadowflare, and aero as all dps options.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

At the end of the day, I think what vetch wrote is just the obvious. It’s up to the devs to pass the good judgement and make a better change. (they did not lmao)

[Maltothoris]

So do you folks think fights in other games aren't scripted? And thats a valid reason for why healers should have half their time be a task wholly antithetical to the stated purpose of the role?

This is why the devs do what they do. I can't even believe the stuff I see here sometimes.

Well heres the thing there was variation with the damage. Look at a fight like O7S from back in stormblood. Atomic ray targeted only the 4 dps, not the healers or tanks. You have the missle dot, which goes on a random dps player for a rather heavy bleed. Sometimes, the bleed would happen during a raidwide aoe. You had the dalaluma add, which would pick a random healer or dps and put a bleed on them.

Compared this to say, P9S, everyone is getting huit by the fire on the first mech, everyone is getting hit by lightning on the second one, everyone is getting hit by fire again after that. Then everyone gets hit by pairs again, then everyone goes into healers stacks before an aoe. It is quite the contrast between who is getting hit and what not.

[ty_taurus]

Well heres the thing there was variation with the damage. Look at a fight like O7S from back in stormblood. Atomic ray targeted only the 4 dps, not the healers or tanks. You have the missle dot, which goes on a random dps player for a rather heavy bleed. Sometimes, the bleed would happen during a raidwide aoe. You had the dalaluma add, which would pick a random healer or dps and put a bleed on them.

Compared this to say, P9S, everyone is getting huit by the fire on the first mech, everyone is getting hit by lightning on the second one, everyone is getting hit by fire again after that. Then everyone gets hit by pairs again, then everyone goes into healers stacks before an aoe. It is quite the contrast between who is getting hit and what not.

It's also worth noting how EW had a lot of examples of fights, including in normal content, where you'd have several theoretically possible combinations of something. Yet for some reason, rather than allowing those different combinations to occur randomly, the fight is scripted to deliver specific combos in a specific order. I noticed this right away with Smileton.

The Big Cheese, the final boss of Smileton, has two conveyor belts on each side of the arena. One moves fast, moving an explosive to the bottom of the arena, while the other moves slow, moving the explosive to the front of the arena. What you end up with is two possible outcomes, either the front right and back left are safe, or the front left and back right are safe. At the same, one of two things will happen: either the boss will fire a laser down the left or right, or place two mines at the front and back of the left or right. Essentially, both these outcomes do the same thing, which is cutting off one of the safe zones.

The first set of conveyor explosives have no accompanied pattern.
The second will always have the mine cover the back safe zone.
The third will always have the laser fire at the back safe zone.
The fourth will always have the mine cover the back safe zone.
During the fifth, the mines from the fourth remain and cover the front safe zone. The boss will ready a laser to fire toward the back safe zone after the explosions, leaving the space between the mines as safe.
During the sixth, the mines will still be around to cover the back safe zone.
The seventh will fire a laser toward the front safe zone.

At this point, the fight has likely ended.

Why am I able to list out which safe zones will be targeted for each instance of the mechanic without running the dungeon? It's not a hard mechanic. Why couldn't which zone be safe at least be randomized?

[Allegor]

That's something I noticed too, every fight is (or at least seems) scripted, the only true "rng" element are the players themselves.

[Maltothoris]

Well the thing is all fights are scripted but how damage happened to everyone had a degree of randomness to it that is lacking in today's designs. Lets use T13 for example, for megaflare, it's spread splash aoe, baited puddles, and a stack. The thing is was that the stack could only be 2, 3 or 4 people that need to share it. Also the earth shakers targeted only the dps and never the tanks or healers. In A3s, first there would be the protean baits and then a second set of protean waves that would hit 6 people. This actually made a rather hard hitting combo with sluice (which targeted 4 people with splash aoe) into protean wave. So those 4 people who were hit by the sluice could potentially die to the protean wave. Then if you do A4s the intended way, you had to deal with the nisi dot while dealing with discoid, carnage, carnage zero, royal pentacle and the adds with reducible complexity.

There was also the fact that fights back then were for the most part had HP thresholds which sometimes made more dps more harmful than helpful.

[Niroken]

Well the thing is all fights are scripted but how damage happened to everyone had a degree of randomness to it that is lacking in today's designs. Lets use T13 for example, for megaflare, it's spread splash aoe, baited puddles, and a stack. The thing is was that the stack could only be 2, 3 or 4 people that need to share it. Also the earth shakers targeted only the dps and never the tanks or healers. In A3s, first there would be the protean baits and then a second set of protean waves that would hit 6 people. This actually made a rather hard hitting combo with sluice (which targeted 4 people with splash aoe) into protean wave. So those 4 people who were hit by the sluice could potentially die to the protean wave. Then if you do A4s the intended way, you had to deal with the nisi dot while dealing with discoid, carnage, carnage zero, royal pentacle and the adds with reducible complexity.

There was also the fact that fights back then were for the most part had HP thresholds which sometimes made more dps more harmful than helpful.

Fights also had way less indicators and the enemy attacks were generally quicker or had shorter intervals inbetween. The pace of attacks are soooo slow it's laughable these days.

[Maltothoris]

It is also something that has been pointed out a lot but auto attacks have seen a huge decline in how much they happen. I'm looking through some old stuff from the forbidden website on say, the first boss of the final tier. For when the fight is nearing the enrage, both tanks suffered a total of 37 autos throughout the entire fight. Now if say autos stay at the rate that they do in that they hit every 3 seconds in accordance with the server tick, they means the boss did a total of 4 autos per minute when say the maximum of how many how autos per minute is 20. That is an embarrassing low amount of autos. In older fights like UCOB, the autos per minute on average were around 12-13.

[Supersnow845]

The complete lack of auto attacks also contributes to making single target heals feel completely useless if they aren’t passive heals like eos or kardia

AOE heals are basically already stronger than single target heals and the lack of auto attacks and the tank healing means that about the only use you get out of single target heals would be correcting mistakes (ie triage) but then that’s made useless by the fact that mistakes lead to wipes in the body check heavy raid design

Like seriously when was the last time you pressed tetra and felt like it was a meaningful addition to your healing