Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Supersnow845]

Respectfully a lot of these are simply bad ideas to remove.

WHM: Yes, Cure 1 and medica 1 need to go. That's pretty obvious. They should trait Cure 1 > Cure 2 / Medica > Cure 3 (keep the Medica range). Both Tetra and Benison have valid uses (Snap heals, tank busters). Benison stacks with SCH Adlo

SCH in general needs a lot of work. They basically took any good idea and gave them to sage in Endwalker. Mostly in the "2 effects, 1 button" category. Right now, they need something better AOE wise and I think energy drain is the easiest to do since they're not giving back bane. Put it at 350 potency with a 50% Aoe dropoff (After the first hits for 180 each. But they definitely need to figure something out about all those fairy buttons because Sage just does every single one of them better and they're baked into other buttons. Also after playing sage, Adlo REALLY needs it's cast time reduced or eliminated.

SGE As of right now the only "bad" button is Pepsis, but they have no real identity as a "Shield healer". So many of their "shields" are just weak. For example: Taurochloe. It has a full heal and then a damage reduction. Why not have that heal be a shield? Would be a great tank buster button. Panhaima is good for aoe bleeds.

AST I'm terrible at but I know some of their buttons can be easily combined and a few just don't need to be there (undraw)

My entire point is that you can come up with niche edge cases for every healing button in the game, that doesn’t actually justify their existence, for example you can justify Pepsis by saying that if the attack only partially cracks the shield (say ifrit in UWU) then you can still Pepsis for the full heal. It is a use case but it doesn’t justify its button slot. Something like tetra is almost exactly the same, like sure it is “faster” than solace, but solace actually justifies its place in the kit because it works with the gauge and builds towards misery

Trying to retain buttons for the sole propose of the fact you can invent niche uses for them is exactly how we ended up in this situation

Also side note I’m trying to figure out which buttons you think SGE is doing better than SCH considering that SCH’s buttons are better in just about every circumstance, you just have to press more than one; which really isn’t a downside in my eyes

[Mortex]

My entire point is that you can come up with niche edge cases for every healing button in the game, that doesn’t actually justify their existence, for example you can justify Pepsis by saying that if the attack only partially cracks the shield (say ifrit in UWU) then you can still Pepsis for the full heal. It is a use case but it doesn’t justify its button slot. Something like tetra is almost exactly the same, like sure it is “faster” than solace, but solace actually justifies its place in the kit because it works with the gauge and builds towards misery

Trying to retain buttons for the sole propose of the fact you can invent niche uses for them is exactly how we ended up in this situation

Also side note I’m trying to figure out which buttons you think SGE is doing better than SCH considering that SCH’s buttons are better in just about every circumstance, you just have to press more than one; which really isn’t a downside in my eyes

I do argue Sch and sgn bubbles serve way different situations. Sgn bubble can be used for all and every mechs while sch bubble has a even after the range increase some range problems. (ofc it lasts 5 seconds longer because of coding). Also having the options for giving shields for the party or a single target in a movement situation is still a massive gain because we both now trusting the fairy will lead 80 % fo the time to a dead person. Plus Sgn has no dilemma with energy drain or aoe heals/bubble. Also in comparison i find sch just clunky. Like jumping through 500 hoops for almost the same dmg and healing as sgn is the same problem astro vs whm have. Why play astro and playing piano when whm does the same with no downside and way more relaxed gameplay.

[Supersnow845]

I do argue Sch and sgn bubbles serve way different situations. Sgn bubble can be used for all and every mechs while sch bubble has a even after the range increase some range problems. (ofc it lasts 5 seconds longer because of coding). Also having the options for giving shields for the party or a single target in a movement situation is still a massive gain because we both now trusting the fairy will lead 80 % fo the time to a dead person. Plus Sgn has no dilemma with energy drain or aoe heals/bubble. Also in comparison i find sch just clunky. Like jumping through 500 hoops for almost the same dmg and healing as sgn is the same problem astro vs whm have. Why play astro and playing piano when whm does the same with no downside and way more relaxed gameplay.

Because unlike WHM VS AST SGE VS SCH SCH wins in almost every category, higher damage, better shields, more mitigation, better utility

Sure you jump through more hoops but it’s better because of it

[AmiableApkallu]

Because unlike WHM VS AST SGE VS SCH SCH wins in almost every category, higher damage, better shields, more mitigation, better utility

Sure you jump through more hoops but it’s better because of it

This reminds me of vague thoughts I had on WHM vs. SCH. Namely, do away with the "pure" vs. "barrier" split and instead build the jobs around the following:

WHM: On the healing front, push button, wait for cast, thing happens. Jack of all trades, master of none. On the damage front, as the counterpoint BLM, deals damage directly. In okay amounts in an okay player's hands; terrifying amounts in a skilled player's hands with a skilled party.

SCH: On the healing front, some planning and assembly required. Capable of being the best at any specific task (restore HP, put up a shield, etc.), but the need to plan ahead and "assemble" skills together means you can't just button mash your way to being the best all the time. On the damage front, skilled play enables the rest of the party to take greater risks for greater damage.

[Mortex]

Because unlike WHM VS AST SGE VS SCH SCH wins in almost every category, higher damage, better shields, more mitigation, better utility

Sure you jump through more hoops but it’s better because of it

I agree in a non downtime fight sch is better yes . But in any downtime fight sch and sgn are so super close (TOP example) dps wise that i see no reason playing sch over sgn expect when you go double shield.

[Supersnow845]

I agree in a non downtime fight sch is better yes . But in any downtime fight sch and sgn are so super close (TOP example) dps wise that i see no reason playing sch over sgn expect when you go double shield.

True but downtime fights are incredibly rare, they are basically just ultimates

[Mortex]

True but downtime fights are incredibly rare, they are basically just ultimates

like i wrote a post later every good sch log is the co healer healing all and the sch using only energy drain while the sgn logs is them almost always healing the most out of the healer duo. im pretty sure you can guess why that is the case

[Supersnow845]

like i wrote a post later every good sch log is the co healer healing all and the sch using only energy drain while the sgn logs is them almost always healing the most out of the healer duo. im pretty sure you can guess why that is the case

Still whole energy drain contributes SCH isn’t remotely weak on damage even if you don’t use energy drain and if you don’t use ED then SCH is even higher than SGE on HPS

it’s a choice that offers skill ceilings to healer duos that want it, it’s not like we need both healers to have SGE’s disgusting free HPS, SCH can beat it but it has to give up damage