To YoshiP, here's what too stress-free: Healer edition

[Supersnow845]

Toxicon encouraging over shielding on SGE is argue falls into the “actively detrimental like double down” especially after they added toxicon to prognosis which now just has DF SGE’s encouraged to keep e prognosis up 100% of the time and reapply them as soon as they crack or expire for stacks that don’t actually help them do anything

Heaven help if you are a SCH in a party with a SGE considering e prognosis overwrites critlo

At absolute least if they refuse to retool the system then need to revert that change that e prognosis gives toxicon stacks because anytime I’ve tried to explain to someone that we don’t need 100% uptime on shields I always get “but I need toxicon stacks” (they never explain what for though)

[Aravell]

Toxicon encouraging over shielding on SGE is argue falls into the “actively detrimental like double down” especially after they added toxicon to prognosis which now just has DF SGE’s encouraged to keep e prognosis up 100% of the time and reapply them as soon as they crack or expire for stacks that don’t actually help them do anything

Heaven help if you are a SCH in a party with a SGE considering e prognosis overwrites critlo

At absolute least if they refuse to retool the system then need to revert that change that e prognosis gives toxicon stacks because anytime I’ve tried to explain to someone that we don’t need 100% uptime on shields I always get “but I need toxicon stacks” (they never explain what for though)

Or they could also just have shields make more sense and not have a weaker shield overwrite a stronger one.

[Supersnow845]

Or they could also just have shields make more sense and not have a weaker shield overwrite a stronger one.

I mean 1000 potency critlo being overwritten by a paltry 320 potency E prognosis is the least of the problems I have listed there even if it is damn annoying for SCH players

Even if critlo wasn’t overriden by e prognosis the useless toxicon system still doesnt justify the amount of pointless shielding your average SGE does; even medica 2 spammers at the very least don’t have an in game system justification for the pointless overheal they do, SGE does

[Aravell]

I mean 1000 potency critlo being overwritten by a paltry 320 potency E prognosis is the least of the problems I have listed there even if it is damn annoying for SCH players

Even if critlo wasn’t overriden by e prognosis the useless toxicon system still doesnt justify the amount of pointless shielding your average SGE does; even medica 2 spammers at the very least don’t have an in game system justification for the pointless overheal they do, SGE does

I'm not denying that Toxikon is worthless and encourages bad play, I just don't think that reverting the E.Prognosis proc is enough.

I'd honestly rather ask instead for them to give SGE an identity and design that isn't 'easier SCH with no fairy and a scuffed Ruin II'.

[Supersnow845]

I am generally against the idea of changing jobs so that bad players can’t play badly. There are other scenarios where your cohealer can poorly influence your gameplay, for example when you are cooking a star but your cohealer spams cure 3 to waste the star. I think it is okay for these situations to exist, because it greatly improves your experience in a coordinated group (and for sure SCH/SGE is a very rewarding comp).

Still in a scenario like that you are still rewarded for the damage star does and it’s really no loss to you, overwriting critlo wastes a massive amount of SCH’s resources and its largest source of truly free healing

I agree in concept with the “bad players are going to play bad so attempting to protect good players from them is near pointless” but critlo is a specific exception

I'm not denying that Toxikon is worthless and encourages bad play, I just don't think that reverting the E.Prognosis proc is enough.

I'd honestly rather ask instead for them to give SGE an identity and design that isn't 'easier SCH with no fairy and a scuffed Ruin II'.

Oh I don’t disagree I just have my expectations on the floor for healers

[ty_taurus]

Toxicon encouraging over shielding on SGE is argue falls into the “actively detrimental like double down” especially after they added toxicon to prognosis which now just has DF SGE’s encouraged to keep e prognosis up 100% of the time and reapply them as soon as they crack or expire for stacks that don’t actually help them do anything

Heaven help if you are a SCH in a party with a SGE considering e prognosis overwrites critlo

At absolute least if they refuse to retool the system then need to revert that change that e prognosis gives toxicon stacks because anytime I’ve tried to explain to someone that we don’t need 100% uptime on shields I always get “but I need toxicon stacks” (they never explain what for though)

The thing that I think differentiates Toxikon from something like Double Down is Double Down is optimal and "forces" you to play by its rules, at least if you want to play Gunbreaker optimally. Toxikon is smarmy in that it tries to deceive you into playing Sage wrong, but if you have the smarts to realize its numbers don't add up, or have at least learned from other people talking about it like on here, The Balance discord, or a Sage guide video of some sort, then you can avoid falling into that trap.

That's why I compare it to Stormblood Lilies. Back then, someone made the argument of why the SB lilies were so inconsequential by stating that if you removed the gauge from your UI, virtually nothing about White Mage gameplay would change. The same is true here. If you took Toxikon off your hotbar, your performance would be virtually the same if you are otherwise playing Sage correctly.

But that also brings up the question of "Is Toxikon actually worse than Double Down?" You aren't forced to use Toxikon the wrong way, as we established. But does the fact that it's a noob trap make it worse? Because while in practice it is at best an unnecessary button that otherwise don't hurt you, does its negative impact on new or learning Sages make it a detriment to the game as a whole? Is its poor design hurting new players, teaching them bad habits, tricking them in to healing in the worst way possible? Perhaps that means Toxikon is far worse than Double Down.

[Maltothoris]

I think it also hilarious to think about how much they had to do in order to try and make toxicon more worth it. First, they had to make it where you started the fight with all three stacks instead of gaining them. Then in 6.3, they made it to to where you could gain them from e. Prognosis. Sadly it doesn't change the fact that this is still a dps loss and a minor mp loss as well.

[Supersnow845]

I think it also hilarious to think about how much they had to do in order to try and make toxicon more worth it. First, they had to make it where you started the fight with all three stacks instead of gaining them. Then in 6.3, they made it to to where you could gain them from e. Prognosis. Sadly it doesn't change the fact that this is still a dps loss and a minor mp loss as well.

Toxicon gain on P1 was hilariously bad because what’s his face didn’t do a raidwide as his opener and had zero downtime so you literally got one stack from toxicon’ing the tank and that was it

And you still didn’t need it because that fight was a joke

[Aravell]

SGE was a wreck of a job from launch, all you have to do is look at the long list of buffs they had to get for the community to accept them as a suitable alternative to SCH.

It's just unfortunate that they weren't designed with a proper identity and a niche of their own in the first place.

[AmiableApkallu]

It's just unfortunate that they weren't designed with a proper identity and a niche of their own in the first place.

If you look at how various cutscenes depict a Sage Doing Their Thing(tm), their identity is clear: blocking incoming attacks via barriers. The implementation of the job simply doesn't embrace it fully.

(And as a related observation, Kardia gets essentially zero screen time. Alphinaud stops attacking to heal Allisaie in the opening trailer... Not to mention the comic absurdity that would be Sharlayan running its medical wards by sending doctors out into the local fields to laser wildlife to death.)