Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

[Vyrerus]

...as far as the WoL would know...

This actually just opens up a sort of ludonarrative can of worms that's been ever present, but usually doesn't have attention called to itself until after MSQ segments have concluded (and then again later in seasonal/anniversary events).

That can of worms being that half the time, the story treats the WoL as the promotional WoL who is a unique character who we have no say in.

The other half of the time, the WoL is treated like the adventurer from FFXI, wherein we get a wink-wink, nudge nudge that the WoL is us, the player.

You see it during The Rising. You see it when having conversations with, "The Wandering Minstrel." You see it especially in the Iroha crossover Fate events, where you also get the notion that your WoL is somehow intertwined with your adventurer from FFXI.

These are Fourth Wall breaks, but they are indeed genuine. So all of the time, we the player, know that alternate timelines never die out as shown by the 8UC short story. And half the time our WoL is treated like they know what we know.

Barring cutscene incompetence and plot related blockheadery, it's been a real let down that the WoL did nothing to try and cause a timeline branch. Especially since the 8UC short story where hope is kept alive and Midgardsormr wakes up has existed since before Endwalker came out.

In a game series that started with the idea of changing fate within the context of a time loop, having a similar theme to challenging fate appear again and again, it really makes Endwalker stand out like a sore thumb. The one time fate can't be changed. The one time fate shouldn't be changed. The one time we must accept that we must not only be complicit in evil, but accept the person perpetrating said evil as not evil. Also the one time where we must actively kowtow to a villain's whims from the advice that we should fear what will happen.

So it's little wonder that some folks root for the old villains. There's nothing inspiring or heroic in this story anymore. Just kill or be killed and listen to your betters. Trust and believe them. Take whatever they tell you on faith. Do not desire even the possibility of a better outcome.

Remember all that you hold dear is being held hostage by causality.

Not the game I fell in love with. Not the series I fell in love with. A pale imitation wearing modded clown shoes.

[Iscah]

The direct answer to this would be that there is insufficient evidence to back the claim that you cannot travel between Timesteam A to timestream B and then back to timestream A in terms of FFXIV, especially since the writers have used multiple different ideas as to how time travel works in FFXIV.

I have written previously (and do not have time for the full essay today) that I don't believe they have used multiple ideas – or at least, those multiple ideas can operate within a single consistent set of rules about how time travel works.

TL;DR the time traveller needs to know what happened in the past before they have a hope of changing it, because they need to change the outcome of events they know should happen. G'raha was prepared for this, we were not and could not be.

That can of worms being that half the time, the story treats the WoL as the promotional WoL who is a unique character who we have no say in.

The other half of the time, the WoL is treated like the adventurer from FFXI, wherein we get a wink-wink, nudge nudge that the WoL is us, the player.

You see it during The Rising. You see it when having conversations with, "The Wandering Minstrel." You see it especially in the Iroha crossover Fate events, where you also get the notion that your WoL is somehow intertwined with your adventurer from FFXI.

I think you're stitching together something that isn't there.

A two-minute fourth-wall-breaking conversation per year that is explicitly outside the character's reality and a one-shot crossover event based on FFXI are not proof that "half the time" the writers want to treat us how they treated the FFXI character (if that is accurate).

Even the Iroha event isn't a fourth wall break, it just tries to draw a line between the player's XIV character and their hypothetical XI character.

The closest might be the (IMO over-laboured) business of characters in Endwalker asking whether your journey was good and meaningful, but even then it happens primarily within context of the character, and any "they're really asking us-the-player" is a secondary implicit reading.

The character does not and should not spontaneously acquire knowledge simply because the player knows it, and this has never happened so far.

In a game series that started with the idea of changing fate within the context of a time loop, having a similar theme to challenging fate appear again and again, it really makes Endwalker stand out like a sore thumb. The one time fate can't be changed. The one time fate shouldn't be changed.

Are you talking about 1.0 or earlier FFs? Either way it's nothing that I'm aware of in this game as I know it.

In any case this isn't the first and only time we've had a stable time loop story in FFXIV. Alexander was all about the time loop having to play out consistently and ultimately that we needed to stop time from being altered by an enemy who wanted to overwrite events in their favour.

Elpis doesn't stand out to me at all. It was logical from the moment they talked about going there that this would have to be a case of not disturbing the timeline, just observing events that had already happened, and gaining knowledge of unrecorded history because we need to know that history to save the present.

[ZavosEsperian]

TL;DR the time traveller needs to know what happened in the past before they have a hope of changing it, because they need to change the outcome of events they know should happen. G'raha was prepared for this, we were not and could not be.

Okay. Based on your statement and the rules I have set up; I shall propose an adequate solution assuming the point in which we time travel from is post 6.55:

Cid and Nero work together to build a time machine that is capable of complete bidirectional travel and giving us a requisite amount of aether to interact with the environment after examining records left behind inside of the Crystal Tower on the First that we retrieve for them (note, we destroyed The Tycoon and I do not believe we destroyed anything else related to possible records left over should they exist. If I am incorrect in this assertion, I would like a citation and I will change this to be more adequate). We use the time machine to go back to Elpis inside of an alternate timeline and proceed to stop everything as we now have full knowledge as to what is going to happen due to our previous experiences. As such, by your statement, we can alter history and, with that, are able to save the Ancients.

Nothing I have stated above conflicts directly with pre-established lore post 6.55 nor does it conflict with any statements from the writers as far as I am aware. As this is a headcanoned argument, much like what I am used to seeing, there are good chances I may have missed something, but if I did, I would like these things pointed out with complete citations. Failure to do so will mean I will disregard the argument on the same grounds most individuals here tend to when they argue from a point of headcanons.

Since you directly referenced my previous post, it is expected that you know what I have cited, particularly since you believe there is only one mode of time travel, which means all forms of time travel have the potential to yield alternate timelines per arguments made in the post I made prior.

If you do find something that does contradict my approach, feel free to cite it. I will look over the citation along with its context and adjust as needed, possibility and headcanons are flexible like this. If you take issues with my methods of coming up with this scenario, understand the question of this thread exists inside of the realm of possibility and that, per other previous posts, you cannot successfully argue either it is possible to save the Ancients or it is not possible to save the Ancients as true because there is not enough information to do so, which you would know if you read the post you referenced completely.

[Vyrerus]

I think you're stitching together something that isn't there.

I think you're willfully ignoring what is there, because it doesn't suit your mindset.

The visions had during the Rising Event are the same as any other visions the WoL has. Out of body experience, and then a snap back to immediate reality. They are as real as you want them to be, only that they have no direct bearing on the game's story.

And these were just the immediate examples that came to mind. There are more. The callbacks to the WoLs from 1.0 during ARR. The sidequests with The Wandering Draumaturge. The fact that the WoL has no way to know where to go for quests without us taking them there (this one also meshes rather poorly with the WoL having a poor memory with regards to who's who and all that, but knows exactly where to go, pretty much all of the time). Which leads to the tongue in cheek, often played off of, "Man, you sure do always seem to know exactly when to show up." or "Man, how did you know exactly where to look?" Basically, we give the WoL knowledge they don't otherwise have, all of the time.

I was referencing the very first Final Fantasy and prior entries, yes. The series very often has the concept of fighting with destiny to save the world/a people, and often features time travel, alternate worlds/dimensions, and prophecy.

The Alexander Raids were actually about Alexander manipulating the timeline to stop itself, because it wasn't truly omniscient, and couldn't actually perceive infinite timelines, as that would require infinite aether. It was all a setup for Alexander to contain itself within a static timeloop to prevent draining the world of aether. It has its issues, too. All time travel narratives do.

That's a weird perspective you've got on Elpis. It should be a big stand out, since not only do we go there once, but multiple times, even gaining a useable presence there that does influence the timeline because you see events we're responsible for. Chiefly, Pandemonium. Secondly, sidequests revolving around modern day monsters like the behemoth. Then the rituals, like Nymeia Lilies.

Also it wasn't knowledge of unrecorded history. It was knowledge of purposefully destroyed history.

[Iscah]

That's a weird perspective you've got on Elpis. It should be a big stand out, since not only do we go there once, but multiple times, even gaining a useable presence there that does influence the timeline because you see events we're responsible for. Chiefly, Pandemonium. Secondly, sidequests revolving around modern day monsters like the behemoth. Than the rituals, like Nymeia Lilies.

Also it wasn't knowledge of unrecorded history. It was knowledge of purposefully destroyed history.

Never recorded or recorded and wiped out is irrelevant. The people of the present day have no record of what happened back then, and they need to find out.

And yes, we're there in Elpis blithely creating stable causal loops where we describe a present-day thing and thus accidentally become the base inspiration for the present day thing, but we're not actually altering anything in the present day by doing so. Things are just getting absorbed into "how it always happened in the unknown parts of history" and the result isn't any different to what you were previously aware of.

As for Pandæmonium, I disagree with the characters' in-story theorising about "what if whatever is happening there will make the Final Days even worse". It seems straightforward to me that we can be confident that whatever happens in the past is what has already happened and will lead to the present day, even if the details would be different. We might be making the overall situation better by interfering, but ignoring it would not cause the situation to spontaneously worsen – although whatever later emerges into the present day might be exponentially worse.

[Vyrerus]

Never recorded or recorded and wiped out is irrelevant.

It's entirely relevant, since all we'd need to avoid time travel is to, IDK, have Hydaelyn tell us the truth about stuff. But you know...

Since the setting does allow for timelines to change, then the idea of, "This is how it always was." falls completely apart. That is supposition no stronger than any other. Remember the Shadowbringers trailer? Let what was written be unwritten and all that jazz?

We're not writing how it's always been. We're rewritinghow it will be. The 8UC timeline is actually the prime timeline in FFXIV's universe, where there is no WoL involvement in Elpis at all, because in the 8UC timeline there was never a Crystal Exarch preventing the 8th Umbral Calamity. And the WoL there dies and can't go back in time, or even to The First, to cause recursive paradoxes.

Without WoL's intervention with Pandaemonium, Lahabrea will be unswayed by Themis's appeal and unmake the facility with all of its keywards and inhabitants. Athena will never arrive in the present day to remake it, because Claudien or w/e his name was will never find a memory stone from Aitiascope causing him to go to Azys Lla and get body jacked. It has only as much impact as we involve ourselves in it. Until the writers make it super important directly in some way.

[Iscah]

It's entirely relevant, since all we'd need to avoid time travel is to, IDK, have Hydaelyn tell us the truth about stuff. But you know...

Since the setting does allow for timelines to change, then the idea of, "This is how it always was." falls completely apart. That is supposition no stronger than any other. Remember the Shadowbringers trailer? Let what was written be unwritten and all that jazz?

We're not writing how it's always been. We're rewritinghow it will be. The 8UC timeline is actually the prime timeline in FFXIV's universe, where there is no WoL involvement in Elpis at all, because in the 8UC timeline there was never a Crystal Exarch preventing the 8th Umbral Calamity. And the WoL there dies and can't go back in time, or even to The First, to cause recursive paradoxes.

The nature of the timeline (at least as I work it out) has only a single version of events up to the extraordinary events of Shadowbringers causing it to split in two from that point onwards.

Because it is a single timeline at the time of Elpis, when we travel back from our branch of the later timeline, we end up in the shared past of both branches, and the events we experience happen and carry on into both futures. There is no timeline where the WoL from timeline branch B did not visit Elpis.

Meanwhile, Hydaelyn can't tell us anything that we didn't know when we came to Elpis, or it will alter the situation and break the time loop. As soon as we tell her we've been there, she immediately gives us all the additional information she can provide to us.

And no, the idea of stable time loops does not have to fall apart just because it is possible to change things. As I see it, a time-traveller's actions do not automatically change the timeline, or events such as Alexander's time loops would not be possible. Most tellingly, the "save your past self" moment would not be possible if a traveller's actions always split the timeline, and would not be necessary if there was some "preceding version" of events where somebody else saved us.

Making sense of the two types of time travel in a single set of rules requires (IMO) a universe that "prefers" a single timeline and stable time loops when time travel occurs, but armed with the right fore-knowledge of events at the destination, it is possible to disrupt things so the original outcome is not possible – for example, ensuring that the First was not primed for Rejoining on the known date of the Eighth Calamity. The outcome is irreconcilable with the time traveller's original future, and a new timeline has to be created for this new and incompatible version of events.

[Vyrerus]

The nature of the timeline

The events of Shadowbringers resulted in an entirely new timeline, not a mere branch. There is no conjunction formed for the 8UC with Elpis, and so Elpis is not tied to that timeline in the same way as it is in ours.

The reason it's not a mere branch is because the time at which the conjunction occurs is hundreds of years before the timeline split happens. The timeline split happens because the 8UC timeline sent the Crystal Tower backwards through both time and space, causing an entirely new timeline to form. It doesn't share the same past, again, because the conjunction cannot exist for the 8UC, as the 8UC is entirely unlinked from our timeline. The conjunction only happens for our timeline, since it happens after the point in the 8UC where the WoL would be dead.

This means that living WoL from Timeline B using Timeline A's time machine goes back in time only in Timeline B.

To wit, we can't go back to an earlier point in the 8UC. If we could, the 8UC timeline would not exist at all, it would have been rewritten. Do you see why it's not a branch?

It's like in Dragonball Z when Trunks goes back in time. He, using Bulma's time machine, created another entire timeline, and the time machines only go there. They don't go into any other past.

Hydaelyn could have always told us what she knew. That is not dependent on time travel. It is dependent on her willingness to tell the truth. Something she's not very keen on.

The time travel events within Alexander are different because they happened contained inside of Alexander itself, which is already a pocket dimension inside of a primal. The entire situation with that relies on us fighting Alexander Prime for the conjunction there to cause a loop. Prior to us entering the time gate that takes us into Alexander Prime's dimension, the Illuminati tried to use freeze time to kill us, freeze time ended sooner than expected, and we dodged out of the way. The conjunction has it that it was Alexander trying to kill us because he sends robots back in time to prolong how long freeze time lasts, so you have misunderstood the scenario. The preceding event is that freeze time was started by the Illuminati, and it does not last long enough to kill us without the robots being sent back in time from Alexander Prime. Basically, Alexander tried to defeat us by changing the past, and we prevent him from changing the past. It's actually not a loop.

There is no actual set of rules. It's writer fiat. And it has really made a mess of the setting.

[Iscah]

And these were just the immediate examples that came to mind. There are more. The callbacks to the WoLs from 1.0 during ARR. The sidequests with The Wandering Draumaturge. The fact that the WoL has no way to know where to go for quests without us taking them there (this one also meshes rather poorly with the WoL having a poor memory with regards to who's who and all that, but knows exactly where to go, pretty much all of the time). Which leads to the tongue in cheek, often played off of, "Man, you sure do always seem to know exactly when to show up." or "Man, how did you know exactly where to look?" Basically, we give the WoL knowledge they don't otherwise have, all of the time.

The player directing the character to go places is not remotely a sign that that character doesn't know where to go; it's the most basic mechanic of any story-based videogame ever. If you don't have control of the character acting out the things that the character needs to do, you're not playing a game, you're watching a movie.

You're also making a lot of assumptions about the WoL's memory and such. There are dialogue prompts that allow you to have the character not remember who others are (as a subtle way for the player themself to be reminded) but they always or very often come paired with the other dialogue choice being a warm welcome to someone the character recognises and calls by name.

And even if the poor memory for faces and names is the canon version, that doesn't necessarily stop them from having a good memory for places, or if it really needs an explanation then you can put it on the Echo giving them a constant vague sense of premonition about where to go and what to pick up.

[Vyrerus]

where to go.

I'd chock it up to that if the game itself didn't call attention to it. Since the game has done that, the game wants you to think about that answer.

It's true you get a warm response and a cold response, but sometimes you get several responses, and it's never two warm. It's always two unsure or cold responses.

It's canon that the WoL cannot control the Echo, so their Echo doesn't do that for them. It could but it doesn't. It doesn't, because they'd go near unconscious every quest. It also doesn't because there are quests where we have to follow seeking things like when Krile gets Matoya's Crystal Eye to find Thancred.