Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

[Cleretic]

I have been playing since 3.5/late 2015. I am also an altoholic, I have multiple alts that not only have not completed endwalker, but are below level 80. It doesn't mean a damn thing. And even those who do have a job at cap generally have one or two jobs at most at cap because leveling secondary jobs is a pain in the rear.

You don't wear those as your only character, though. I can tell you completed Endwalker just by a brief glance at your 'lead' character (although I imagine they're not your main), and any level of research backs that up. As much as I disagree with what you took from playing Endwalker, nobody can deny that you did do the required reading.

Really, this is just asking for a base level of showing your work. If someone was talking about how Reaper is terrible and needs a rework, you wouldn't take them seriously without knowing they at least played the thing.

[redheadturk]

You don't wear those as your only character, though. I can tell you completed Endwalker just by a brief glance at your 'lead' character (although I imagine they're not your main), and any level of research backs that up. As much as I disagree with what you took from playing Endwalker, nobody can deny that you did do the required reading.

Really, this is just asking for a base level of showing your work. If someone was talking about how Reaper is terrible and needs a rework, you wouldn't take them seriously without knowing they at least played the thing.

They are my primary raider [since the friend who got me into raiding also has an Ascian/Ancient alt, I just felt it was appropriate.] My oldest rolled no longer exists [he was on Tonberry] and my main [That I rolled in mid 2016] is on Leviathan. My current main is on Jenova -shrug-

As to the question, G'raha has proven alt timelines exist, all we have to do is #1 leave notice of the threat in a memory crystal in a place Emet or Hyth is certain to find it [their office that people generally don't go into while it's empty comes to mind] or #2 telling Elidibus and Lahabrea after the congruence has finished during the raids [sharing it in an echo vision being the most likely method.] They can then handle it from there with all information in hand.

[Iscah]

As to the question, G'raha has proven alt timelines exist, all we have to do is #1 leave notice of the threat in a memory crystal in a place Emet or Hyth is certain to find it [their office that people generally don't go into while it's empty comes to mind] or #2 telling Elidibus and Lahabrea after the congruence has finished during the raids [sharing it in an echo vision being the most likely method.] They can then handle it from there with all information in hand.

I wrote about this aspect back in my initial post. From the characters' perspective, G'raha has not proven that multiple timelines can co-exist, only that he can travel from the future and change the past to create a new future entirely unlike the one he came from. He does not know and has no way of knowing whether that first future still exists or whether changing the past has obliterated it.

From that initial state of understanding, any effort to change the Ancients' fate is a 50/50 gamble on wiping out the current timeline to give the Ancients a chance – no guarantees – of surviving, and I see no reason why the characters should be willing to take such a risk with their own existence and the world they've been fighting to save.

And yes, it is an unfortunate mismatch of themes that this gamble is exactly what G'raha was doing with the 8UE, which has always seemed like bad writing – again it seems like the writers were wanting to have it multiple ways at once at the small scale without stepping back to observe the contradictions. They pulled their punches on just how bad things were, when things needed to be irreversibly dire to justify what they were doing.

[Cleretic]

And yes, it is an unfortunate mismatch of themes that this gamble is exactly what G'raha was doing with the 8UE, which has always seemed like bad writing – again it seems like the writers were wanting to have it multiple ways at once at the small scale without stepping back to observe the contradictions. They pulled their punches on just how bad things were, when things needed to be irreversibly dire to justify what they were doing.

Yeah, my second-biggest 'I wouldn't have done that' issue with the game's story (behind killing Ysayle) is that short story, which I think just undercuts G'raha's journey in ways that really take away from him; now he didn't just make a difficult decision to evacuate a doomed timeline with no chance of revival, he just made a big deal out of leaving it. And also it doesn't have no chance of revival, that story is clearly written as if things will turn around, although it's admittedly just vague hopes and assurances.

I think there's people who read it as assurance that 'we could've saved the Ancients and everything would be just fine', but I honestly don't think so. Not only does that not hold--the Scions were waiting for the WoL to come back with crucial information and were completely screwed if they didn't get it, while nobody in the 8UC timeline really wanted or needed G'raha to be around--but honestly, I don't think the people arguing for saving the Ancients really needed it, they'd already decided they were letting the modern world die in favor of the perfect pretty people.

If I were to really chew on the 8UC timeline's situation I feel like its savior could come from Labyrinthos; it'd probably survive even if Sharlayan got gassed, and as essentially a seed bank, it'd have all the material to revive the world once the active threats dissolved. It'd even explain why none of the active people in the 8UC stories knew about it. But yeah, that's probably more thought put into the 8UC timeline's greater context than the writers did, or thought we'd do.

[Lunaxia]

but honestly, I don't think the people arguing for saving the Ancients really needed it, they'd already decided they were letting the modern world die in favor of the perfect pretty people.

When you actually find any evidence demonstrating the existence of these people who have supposedly claimed they want the mortals to die in favour of the Ancients, or literally anywhere their appearance or, uh, "perfection" (I mean, really?) has been shown to play into these arguments, let me know. In the mean time, I'll send you over some straw, you must be running low by now.

On a brighter note, using the 8UC as a basis as to how one might conceivably save the Ancients could actually make for an interesting discussion. The point about how aware the Scions are regarding the ramifications of G'raha's time travel is a good one too. How might they ascertain the existence of the alternate timeline? Could what happened there, combined with Elpis, give them pause to consider time travel as a tool in certain scenarios? Should it, even? And would they be prompted to use it to save the Ancients somewhere down the line? And how? Thinking about it, if they truly wanted to go down that route at some point, that seems like the most viable way to do so.

...though on appraisal, perhaps a discussion for an altogether different thread, where good faith has a chance of being slightly more tangible than the mythical unicorn and the responses somewhat more coherent for not staggering under the attempt to bear the weight of their own perceived self-importance. Still, a fascinating subject, nonetheless.

[Dikatis]

When you actually find any evidence demonstrating the existence of these people who have supposedly claimed they want the mortals to die in favour of the Ancients, or literally anywhere their appearance or, uh, "perfection" (I mean, really?) has been shown to play into these arguments, let me know. In the mean time, I'll send you over some straw, you must be running low by now.

The present Etheirys and the World Unsundered are mutually exclusive. They cannot exist at the same time. As Cleretic said, if WoL were to somehow intervene and change the past, the Etheirys that they know, the one with all the people, places, and life they know and love, will be grandfather paradoxed out of existence as far as WoL could know. This also means all of the people of the Reflections would never exist too, such as the people of the First.

Even if we could create a branching timeline, that means we'd never be able to return to the main story's timeline just as G'raha could never return to his. And that timeline's Etheirys would be rendered a dead, barren wasteland by the Final Days without WoL bringing knowledge of Meteion back to the present.

Also, there are PLENTY of people on these forums who want all the reflections gone in favor of the Unsundered World and openly talk about their disappointment in us not letting the Ascians finish their plan.

[Lunaxia]

Even if we could create a branching timeline, that means we'd never be able to return to the main story's timeline just as G'raha could never return to his. And that timeline's Etheirys would be rendered a dead, barren wasteland by the Final Days without WoL bringing knowledge of Meteion back to the present.

Granted, I've taken time away from the game in recent months, so if we've had more information that contradicts this then feel free to correct me, but how exactly do we know this? The last I heard, it was merely supposition. G'raha has never actually made the attempt to return to his time, so how do we - or they - know that's even the case that we couldn't return to our own?

And the cast are not entirely ignorant of the notion of an alternate timeline, since G'raha never faded away. As Iscah said, it might seem like too much of a risky gamble at this juncture, but not investigating the matter further seems to be an issue of just not caring enough to do so, lol.

Also, there are PLENTY of people on these forums who want all the reflections gone in favor of the Unsundered World and openly talk about their disappointment in us not letting the Ascians finish their plan.

I've yet to see any in this thread, nor even in any of the threads I've frequented in the entire time I've been here, including one popularly reviled as a haven for Ascian boot-lickers. It feels more like a fantasy that exists to conveniently undermine anyone with even the slightest inclination to question the Ancients' part in the story, honestly.

[Vyrerus]

...as far as the WoL would know...

This actually just opens up a sort of ludonarrative can of worms that's been ever present, but usually doesn't have attention called to itself until after MSQ segments have concluded (and then again later in seasonal/anniversary events).

That can of worms being that half the time, the story treats the WoL as the promotional WoL who is a unique character who we have no say in.

The other half of the time, the WoL is treated like the adventurer from FFXI, wherein we get a wink-wink, nudge nudge that the WoL is us, the player.

You see it during The Rising. You see it when having conversations with, "The Wandering Minstrel." You see it especially in the Iroha crossover Fate events, where you also get the notion that your WoL is somehow intertwined with your adventurer from FFXI.

These are Fourth Wall breaks, but they are indeed genuine. So all of the time, we the player, know that alternate timelines never die out as shown by the 8UC short story. And half the time our WoL is treated like they know what we know.

Barring cutscene incompetence and plot related blockheadery, it's been a real let down that the WoL did nothing to try and cause a timeline branch. Especially since the 8UC short story where hope is kept alive and Midgardsormr wakes up has existed since before Endwalker came out.

In a game series that started with the idea of changing fate within the context of a time loop, having a similar theme to challenging fate appear again and again, it really makes Endwalker stand out like a sore thumb. The one time fate can't be changed. The one time fate shouldn't be changed. The one time we must accept that we must not only be complicit in evil, but accept the person perpetrating said evil as not evil. Also the one time where we must actively kowtow to a villain's whims from the advice that we should fear what will happen.

So it's little wonder that some folks root for the old villains. There's nothing inspiring or heroic in this story anymore. Just kill or be killed and listen to your betters. Trust and believe them. Take whatever they tell you on faith. Do not desire even the possibility of a better outcome.

Remember all that you hold dear is being held hostage by causality.

Not the game I fell in love with. Not the series I fell in love with. A pale imitation wearing modded clown shoes.

[Cleretic]

When you actually find any evidence demonstrating the existence of these people who have supposedly claimed they want the mortals to die in favour of the Ancients, or literally anywhere their appearance or, uh, "perfection" (I mean, really?) has been shown to play into these arguments, let me know. In the mean time, I'll send you over some straw, you must be running low by now.

...the person literally right above this post spent the past two pages trying to argue that it's okay for us to leave the modern world to die so that we can instead try to save the Ancients. (And frankly, this is already the most kindness I've ever seen readheadturk offer the sundered people.) Vyreus tried to attack Cilia's arguments for being anti-perfection. If you can't read that far, I'm not going to help you any further, you clearly aren't listening.

And of course the Ancients are all pretty people who people fall for. Have you been on the internet?

And ya know what? That is where telling them after the congruence in a way that it won't matter if it strands us comes in. Besides, if we leave behind a message in a bottle so to speak for them to find after we've gone back no harm, no foul. How can it strand us if we've already returned and the timeline is still in flux? Is there a chance our message in a bottle may not be found in time? sure, but it's better than being "hurp a derp, nothing we can do" with our fingers in our ears and our thumbs up our butts.

A 'message in a bottle' doesn't work, specifically because of the timeline split you're trying to make happen. The message can't get to the Scions, if the timestream doesn't flow to them. And that's even putting aside that you can't make a message that'd get to them anyway; the Calamities grind everything to dust. The only message that ever got there was Erich's memory crystal, and that thing was garbled to hell and only arrived in a weird place the Scions weren't looking, so no, that's a terrible way to get an important message out.

So what the WoL would have to do in your (very poorly considered) scenario is basically to pick a point in the Elpis trip to stop, go back to the Scions, tell them what they've learned and then go back. Okay, I'll ride this and see where this goes. To do this, we need to figure out at what point does the WoL have actionable information, that the Scions can use?

After talking to Elidibus, learning that Elpis was a place run by Fandaniel? Firmly 'that's nice, dear'-level information, that doesn't help.
After learning Emet was there? Of course Emet knew Fandaniel, that's not news.
On meeting Hermes and Meteion? At this point, they're innocent bystanders; not useful.
On meeting Venat? That's almost an actionable lead, it proves Hydaelyn might know something, but not one of direct usefulness.
When Meteion starts getting the report back? At best you've found the likely culprit, but that doesn't help. Getting a name to curse as you die doesn't avoid dying.

Really, the only choice is after Ktisis, when the WoL returns anyway; it's in Ktisis that we learn that Meteion is definitely the culprit, as well as why, and that Venat tagged her and so probably knows her whereabouts. So essentially we're looking at a scenario where the WoL completes all of Elpis, bails out the Scions in Garlemald (at least, I hope; your idea better not be 'leave Krile a memo'), and then tell them 'hey, ask Hydaelyn, I'm gonna go help her back in the Before Times'.

Because you realize that's what they would do, right? The WoL can't save this independently, and wouldn't want to. Venat doesn't just know everything actionable here save for maybe 'what it's like to die to the End of Days',which I probably wouldn't call helpful; she's also better known in the Ancient world, better equipped to either figure out a solution or to find people to help her--which is, y'know, what she did. The WoL is a blind idiot in this context, and like in every context in which they're a blind idiot (i.e. every expansion, often more than once), they'll defer to someone who knows the place better.

And Venat didn't want our help; she wanted us to go back and help the Scions. Because she knew which end of the timeline we'd actually be useful in.

[redheadturk]

No, I obviously meant leave it for the Convocation [primarily Emet and Elidibus] to find after we're gone detailing what happened in Ktisis,I can't understand how you didn't get that.