Giant boss hitboxes and constant mid teleports make melee less fun.

[Valence]

Even with the hidden buff it's a crap-shoot
Some jobs like BLM and MCH are head and shoulders above everyone else, specially for BLM since crit is heaven for them practically designed around triple cast, while things like Bard even when accounting for the biggest hidden buff I mean look at that sheet lmao, they are still a huge joke.

Yes, running through the numbers it seems to be a little undertuned, which doesnt surprise me with SE. After very fast napkin math a BRD would give the healer about +150 dps, the tank about +200, and you and the other dps around +300 (*2) average, which isn't enough to account for the 2k difference that a MCH would bring for example.

Something curious is how AST provides less damage to the party through this hidden buff than SCH. Plus this damage doesn't go to the buff jobs themselves but the entire party, thus making the "selfish" jobs present even stronger.

Probably for the same reason that DNC provides half what BRD does even if both jobs in full parties are very similar on the party wide damage buffs (DNC is even a bit ahead). DNC partner's mechanics aren't affected by the size of the party and count for a decent chunk of their buffs, much like AST's card are solo targets and a constant source of buffs that is unaffected by the party size.

Now, if that does compare well in terms of numbers in fine or if those numbers are off, idk.

Having a theoretical superior damage is fine if it's reflected by the gaussian spread of skill level. Ranged should provide a tighter reliable spread while an excellent melee player should be able really push their uptime to the upper quartiles past simple reliability. I don't know if that's at all reflected by fflogs data currently. I doubt it.

No, because it means that one role favors bad players (rphys) and one favors good players (melee). As a rphys afficionado, I do not want to be shoehorned into the "role for bad players", thank you very much.

We can also see how great it's working right now within the caster and rphys roles with the amount of players just going for SMN and DNC (over 50%), because DPS checks don't matter that much, and if they did people would whine because some jobs would become useless. And since everything those days has been baked into encounter difficulty and mechanics and not on the battle system or the job gameplay, then the only thing that matters is the effort one has to pour into playing DDR and solving mechanics.

The only solution would be to bring back uniqueness to the rphys role, that currently has been left as a melee without positionals and a ranged without casts. Those jobs used to have the most demanding rotations and the most demanding support, which they lost. And they still had the ranged tax already anyway, because fuck them rphys amaright?

[ThorneDynasty]

No, because it means that one role favors bad players (rphys) and one favors good players (melee). As a rphys afficionado, I do not want to be shoehorned into the "role for bad players", thank you very much.

That's not what that means. Do we always have to get egos involved like this? Just because you can't push your damage as hard beyond the average as another class, doesn't you can be a good player and perform better than your respective average. I didn't say ranged should just do flat damage completely regardless of skill.

[Valence]

That's not what that means. Do we always have to get egos involved like this? Just because you can't push your damage as hard beyond the average as another class, doesn't you can be a good player and perform better than your respective average. I didn't say ranged should just do flat damage completely regardless of skill.

It still follows a design that pits roles against each other because for some reason we need roles that are harder and roles that are easier.

I don't get why people are so allergic to having an equal spread of difficulty, and playing on skill floors and ceilings instead of going for that crap.

[ZiraZ]

It still follows a design that pits roles against each other because for some reason we need roles that are harder and roles that are easier.

I don't get why people are so allergic to having an equal spread of difficulty, and playing on skill floors and ceilings instead of going for that crap.

Because people are allergic to casts, next expansion SMN is gonna unlock the Z axis and float above mechanics, the hitboxes are gonna get bigger and everyone will finally achieve range physical status. Uptime? Planning movement? nah press button that lights up

[Valence]

Because people are allergic to casts, next expansion SMN is gonna unlock the Z axis and float above mechanics, the hitboxes are gonna get bigger and everyone will finally achieve range physical status. Uptime? Planning movement? nah press button that lights up

I'm allergic to real casts, that's why I don't play a caster. But I can deal with the occasional cast, or the half cast hybrids from pvp, etc, because it's different, but don't ask me to play rphys like bow mage used to be, or like BLM/RDM.

I'll say it and get out of the closet, I want the great return of full procs on rphys beyond just bard, with more intricate random solutions and priorities to manage. That used to be a big part of rphys and what made the rotations demanding (often causing tunnel vision). I don't get why we're getting half melee simulacrums (DNC) today, or full melee that play at range (MCH).

[ThorneDynasty]

It still follows a design that pits roles against each other because for some reason we need roles that are harder and roles that are easier.

I don't get why people are so allergic to having an equal spread of difficulty, and playing on skill floors and ceilings instead of going for that crap.

No one is saying there needs to be no difficulty in ranged DPS. But the fact is they will never have the additional challenge of positioning melee has, don't you agree? Let my further simplify this for you:

Let's say because of the positionals and positioning concerns, the a melee does 70% of the average damage and a good one does 130%. Let's say a bad ranged player does 80% vs. 120%. Is a good ranged player now somehow as worthless as a bad one? Obviously not.

I mean, what is the alternative? Just remove positionals and make boss hitboxes even larger, just so that a ranged player doesn't feel inadequate not being able to so express their skill level the same way a melee does? Let's get rid of all casting as well, surely it's "unfair" BLM get to "show off" doing the same or better damage you do despite an additional constraint. Equalize the damage completely, so there's not point at all to bringing melee jobs?

Or maybe you should be instead demanding SE to make your rotations more involved.

[Valence]

Casts simplify gameplay more than anything. This game is so scripted that you never have to cancel anything. You just end up replacing mechanical execution with a turn-based game where you move (or teleport, nowadays) to fixed, predetermined points at scripted timestamps.

I don't think Physical Ranged actually needs anything additional to be more complex than Magical Ranged. The relative lack of movement actions outside of DNC is baffling to me, though. It feels like Casters are paradoxically more mobile.

I'm a big fan of turn based tactical games, and maybe it's just me, but this ain't it. I hate casters with a burning passion. Starting a cast only to get it interrupted by mechanics happens to me. Maybe it doesn't happen to you, but it does to me, and I hate it. It makes me have to plan ahead and know the fight script, which boils down to learn DDR/guitar hero even more and that's not what I find interesting. This is furthest from tactical turn based that I can think of. It's just learning a script.

I like choices on the spot, I like decisions and agency during a fight. A cast being interrupted by a mechanic or something happening is already too late to adjust most of the time, you need to cancel it, make a note in your mind to adjust next run, which kinda works in savage considering you're gonna pull hundred of times and do the same thing again and again and again, but even when I actually have to do that on rphys itself, like delaying songs, holding on some cooldowns, etc, already frustrates me because I need to not forget about doing it every time, so if you multiply this by a thousand little moments due to casting? No thanks. I hate it. That's why I don't play caster, but good for you if that's your jam.

It's also the opposite reason why I don't play melee, I don't like action games with positionals. I like priorities and tactical choices. I like rng.

No one is saying there needs to be no difficulty in ranged DPS. But the fact is they will never have the additional challenge of positioning melee has, don't you agree? Let my further simplify this for you:

Let's say because of the positionals and positioning concerns, the a melee does 70% of the average damage and a good one does 130%. Let's say a bad ranged player does 80% vs. 120%. Is a good ranged player now somehow as worthless as a bad one? Obviously not.

I mean, what is the alternative? Just remove positionals and make boss hitboxes even larger, just so that a ranged player doesn't feel inadequate not being able to so express their skill level the same way a melee does? Let's get rid of all casting as well, surely it's "unfair" BLM get to "show off" doing the same or better damage you do despite an additional constraint. Equalize the damage completely, so there's not point at all to bringing melee jobs?

Or maybe you should be instead demanding SE to make your rotations more involved.

You know, if the only way you have found to start your post is with "let me further simplify this for you", it's already gone to a bad start...

Alternatives have been suggested already, I don't feel the need to repeat myself over it. I think at this point this has gone down the road of disingenuity because some people are actually not open to something specific to rphys that brings up complexity or difficulty, because they just like the current state of things where they can crap on the role and have it do less damage.

[ZiraZ]

Alternatives have been suggested already, I don't feel the need to repeat myself over it. I think at this point this has gone down the road of disingenuity because some people are actually not open to something specific to rphys that brings up complexity or difficulty, because they just like the current state of things where they can crap on the role and have it do less damage.

Wasn't SB MCH one of the least played jobs ever? I don't think most people want complex rphys, in fact I think the rphys community at large despises complex rotations, I barely played back then but I do remember the never ending bitching about wildfire ping and bullets among other things, there is also zero mention by the devs about any rework so this is what you're gonna get for a while.
Also everything Thorne said is sound, but remember your competition here is "casters" not melee and this is a melee thread.

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

Wasn't SB MCH one of the least played jobs ever? I don't think most people want complex rphys, in fact I think the rphys community at large despises complex rotations, I barely played back then but I do remember the never ending bitching about wildfire ping and bullets among other things, there is also zero mention by the devs about any rework so this is what you're gonna get for a while.
Also everything Thorne said is sound, but remember your competition here is "casters" not melee and this is a melee thread.

It wasn't just because it was complex (it wasn't really, just extremely stringent in its rotation) SB MCH was extremely counter-intuitive in how it played and people who enjoyed MCH in HW weren't happy about the changes, it went from a fairly flexible job to being the least flexible and having quirks that made it unpopular.

For example, when SB MCH first came out, the levelling process was miserable, you had absolutely no way to manage your heat until 60+, it should also be noted that until they patched it, overheating was a dps loss, so it wasn't even clear how the fuck anyone was even meant to play it. It was compared unfavorably to Bard's much more well received rework. There was also the dreaded ping issues, because using Flamethrower to go into overheat felt awful and could screw you over if the server wasn't on your side, there was also the heated actions changing back to unheated, if you pressed a heated action just as your heated actions changed back to unheated, it would cancel your cast, because fuck you. Even when they buffed it to be really powerful in the latter end of SB, people still didn't want to deal with it. Many (myself included) felt that it was just too fiddly and clumsy to enjoy.

There are people who liked it, which is fine, but it wasn't popular with new players due to how unintuitive it was and older players who enjoyed MCH in HW also rejected it for changing too much, it was a job that didn't appeal to many, hence why it had to be reworked.

[Valence]

Wasn't SB MCH one of the least played jobs ever? I don't think most people want complex rphys, in fact I think the rphys community at large despises complex rotations, I barely played back then but I do remember the never ending bitching about wildfire ping and bullets among other things, there is also zero mention by the devs about any rework so this is what you're gonna get for a while.
Also everything Thorne said is sound, but remember your competition here is "casters" not melee and this is a melee thread.

SB MCH was at the bottom with SB MNK yes. Although there was also a few other reasons that could explain why, like how jank everything was. In comparison, HW MCH was more difficulty (in fact probably one of if not the most difficult job we have ever had) and yet a lot of people played it, even if suboptimally in casual content. It was also meta in savage past a point in spite of suffering from a dramatic ranged tax already (offset by an insane 10% damage gain from dragoon synergies), so it inflated its numbers.

I haven't done any survey asking to rphys mains what they want tbh. I only talk for myself. But if rphys players just want more summoner and dancer, then I guess it's just a mirror of what the community is willing to take at large anyway. If we don't want more intricate rotations, we could also work on fleshing out a more interesting crowd control system where rphys would be the prime dedicated role to it.

Melees had actually been competing with us for a while now, even if the last safeguard against it has been encounter mechanics and the devs emergency buffing the role without any fail a bit after the start of ShB and EW, when the damage gap went over 10% easily and which tended to nullify the 1% party bonus that is the only thing currently justifying our existence. Triple melee was viable at the start of ShB and it was even more viable at the start of EW due to hitbox size. People just don't do it when possible because most melee don't want to deal with disconnects, and it also lowers their parses due to that missing 1% ironically.

And we're indeed competing with non BLM casters somewhat, but the party bonus prevents anything dire to happen, unlike in ShB when casters were closer to melee in terms of output besides RDM (that was still way ahead of us). The fact that BLM is also flexed between ranged and melee spots in serious groups is also pretty telling, and also brings in another point people don't often talk about: if your ranged jobs do output as much damage as your melee jobs, then you could technically fill up 3 ranged 1 melee and relegate melees to the 1% party damage bonus again, which would turn everything upside down, but it goes to show how bad the core design of balance is in the current system. Ranged jobs and melee jobs need specific niches to fill, and the current system only allocates for pure damage considerations. With only one axis that matters, then trying to differentiate dps roles is a total nonsense to begin with.

Point is, we're constantly being threatened by both other dps roles and the only thing that makes our existence legitimate is a measly 1% party bonus. If people want rphys to continue being more of SMN and DNC so that it continues to justify such a balance nightmare, then I don't know what to tell them and i'll go back to play pvp where the ability kits are 100 times more engaging with 4 times less buttons.

Sorry for the derailment I guess, I reacted to the mention of ranged physical originally.